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Citroen Berlingo 1.9D 2004 - Flat battery fault - Fixed #

Posted by David Briscoe on November 10, 2010, 12:51 am

Year of Manufacture *: 2004
( Optional ) Engine Code or CC: 1.9d

Van came in not running from flat battery replaced battery and van ran fine. Came back the next day with same problem so removed alt and had it serviced also had the starter checked at the same time. Changed positive batt connection as it was rotten van is still discharging while running with the dims/headlights on. changed batt again just in case plugged in diagnostics no fault codes. Battery warning light goes out when started but still nothing anyone came across a problem like this before.

Re: citroen berlingo

Posted by Mark Carter on November 10, 2010, 7:56 am, in reply to "citroen berlingo "
Message modified by board administrator November 11, 2010, 12:42 pm

Looks like it's time to carry out some volt drop testing and a parasitic drain test.

Regards Mark

Re: citroen berlingo

Posted by Aidan Birley on November 10, 2010, 8:28 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo "
Message modified by board administrator November 11, 2010, 12:42 pm

Hi

As Mark says, som basic testing needed First.

You need to clarify if this drains while standing on when running or both.

But if alternator + wiring proves good and still drain while running you should start looking at High current using equipment, e.g. glow plugs and water heater element.

Cheers Aidan

Re: citroen berlingo

Posted by david briscoe <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=ukat3054' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 10, 2010, 8:48 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo "

the battery only drains while the van is running while you are using lights or heater fan it is fitted with beacons and strobe warning lights as well so there is a lot of high voltage systems on it. the van has had a history of ecus blowing its 6yrs old and has had 7 ecus fitted in that time due to water getting into the ecu. ive checked the ecu and theres no corrosion on the plugs or pins.

Re: citroen berlingo

Posted by Ian Gray <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT1648' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 10, 2010, 11:13 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo "
Ian Gray

Hi David, had a similar problem a while ago, turned out to be the front crank pulley had seperated and under load the outer section was slipping. Ian.

Fixed #

Posted by David Briscoe on November 10, 2010, 6:56 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo "
Message modified by board administrator November 13, 2010, 11:15 am

fixed turned out to be a half broken wire from the altenator about 8" from the plug on the altenator just where it enters the main loom. the wire allowed enough power to knock out the batt light but when anything that was high power was switched on it couldnt carry the current thanks for the help

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 11, 2010, 9:05 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Mark Carter

Hi David,
without teaching you to suck eggs, a simple volt drop test would have found that fault in under two mins on your first visit.

Volt drop testing once learnt can save hours of farting about on electrical circuits. HTH

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by david briscoe <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=ukat3054' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 12, 2010, 11:52 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"

hi mark
we all had to learn at sometime i never needed a drop tester before in my previous job doing hgvs and trailers

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 12, 2010, 1:11 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"

Hi David, I totally agree about learning, I learn something every day in this trade.

However the term "drop test" refers to a method of testing and not a piece of equipment.

A volt meter measures the PD between any two points in a circuit, now if we feed 12 volts in one end of a piece of wire, we should get 12 volts out the other end.

So if we connect the volt meter in parallel with the wire the meter should read Zero because 12 volts in, equals 12 volts out the other end.

However if there is a problem in the wire as in your case, the meter will read the difference in voltage between the two ends of the wire and help you pinpoint the problem.

I hope this helps as it is not my intention to belittle anyone.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 12, 2010, 6:11 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"

Here is an old post that I wrote to explain about volt drop testing. (no piss taking please!

)

Old post....

..................................................................Volt Drop Testing

Checking circuits, especially high current starter & alternator circuits for high resistance with an ohmmeter is not always an effective test because the load applied to the circuit by the ohmmeter is very small & will not simulate the much higher load that a starter motor or alternator will place upon the wiring & connections. Instead a method of testing these circuits under the same loads that they normally are subjected to is necessary. I am by no means an electrician but I find that the Volt Drop Test is an relatively simple way to check for these bad connections that very often cause lazy or none start problems. I am sure we all know how embarrassing it can be when a new starter motor is fitted & it turns out that an earth strap was to blame. If you don’t already know how to test using this method, then it will be well worth a read & hopefully it will take the “guesswork” out of starter fault diagnosis.

In the starter circuit pictured above, we can see that the battery feed wire to the solenoid has deteriorated to the point were only a few strands remains. If we were to perform a continuity test or even just test for a feed with a test light, then we could come to the conclusion that the circuit is good. It doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to work out what will happen to the remaining strands when the driver turns the key to crank the engine.

The higher power demands of the starter will highlight any sections of the circuit that limit the current flow. One of the most obvious effects of the high resistance is a build up of heat. It is not uncommon to see smoke or a glowing wire & on more than one occasion I have seen a throttle cable glow in the event of the engine earth strap braking.

It may seem complicated at first but volt drop testing is easy (must be if I can do it). When you get the hang of it, you will be able to pin point exactly the area in the circuit affected. It is very satisfying when you manage to find a bad connection & if you manage to prove that all of the feed & earth circuits are good, you will be able to state with confidence that the component itself is at fault.

It is worth pointing out that a starter motor may appear to be lazy when it could be functioning at it best. Never loose site of other influences that could cause problems, such as a tight engine or even a discharged battery.

Another really good example of how effective this test is…. the older Vauxhall 8 valve petrol engines, with the alternator mounted on rubber bushes & relying solely on a single earth lead to ground the alternator. Within seconds you can test for a bad earth by probing the alternator body & the battery negative terminal. Any significant voltage seen here will indicate an earth problem. So without any dismantling, you have proved conclusively if you have an earth fault or not.

PS feel free to correct any mistakes I have made. As I said I am not an auto electrician & I welcome any comments

End of old post.

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 12, 2010, 9:30 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Peter Mutlow

Nice one Dave and Mark....another mystery unraveled. Next car I go to is going to a voltage drop test on it... whether it likes it or not

Regards

Pete M

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 12, 2010, 10:05 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Mark Carter

Hi Pete,
Volt drop testing is one of those things that make you think how you ever worked without knowing it, once you know it!!

Its one of the first things we teach on route to being a Bosch Diagnostic Technician.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

I agree with that Mark.

I remember fumbling my way through starter motor diagnosis's & often getting it wrong, then I read a chapter in a Haynes manual on diesel engines. Titled "Starter motor diagnosis", it explained quite simply how to proceed through a logical process & pin point the fault.

Once I had understood it, I became aware of how I was previously working with my eyes closed. I would say that volt drop testing & the use of a scope, have been the two most valuable things that I learned along the way.

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Tony Sefton <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5581' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 13, 2010, 6:53 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Tony Sefton

I Always check the voltage at the battery, then check the Voltage at the Component under test, i,e Starter motor or Alternator, If these check out Ok, then theres no need to do a drop test on the cables but if there is a discrepency between the two readings then the Volt drop Test is the way to go to identify which cable is to blame.

As Dave has said, it was a must on the Cavaliers and With this test on various cars we have found Bad alternator Earths, Either through the earth strap or even through corrosion on mounting brackets - Alternator to Bracket or Bracket to engine on some cars, One that comes to mind was escorts.

Transits and some cars suffer with bad connections where the Terminal is Crimped onto the battery cables due to being crimped at the factory and not soldered.

One Cavalier that I checked Even suffered with Bad Alternator to Cylinder head Earth strap, a Bad Earth Between Cylinder head and Cylinder block and a Bad earth between Engine and Gearbox, several earth straps later and it was charging fine.

So its not always a fault with the cables.

Escorts were terrible for starting and charging faults and we regularly found lots of volt drop on the whole starting and charging system, every cable and every joint had a small volt drop but mounted up to possibly something in the region of 2 volts when charging with the lights, wipers and heater etc turned on, So they always used to have flat battery problems in the winter, The Cure was to remove alternator and mounting bracket, clean off all the rust from the brackets and mounting bolts, Make up a new alternator harness and solder up the joints in the ring terminals on the battery / starter cables. The Result was a car that would charge at 14.4 volt ish with no load and around 14.2 volt fully loaded compared with 12 - 12.8 volt previouly and no more flat batteries.

Who said old cars used to be good.

But they were reasonably easy to fix.

They used to be proper Electrical jobs where we could do a job and charge for the amount of time spent fixing it as you could prove the problem and guarrantee the fix, Not like the Modern cars when it goes downhill from the Point where the Customer says --------- DO YOU DO DIAGNOSTICS. ????? I HAVE A PEUGEOT DIESEL AND A WARNING LIGHT OR 3 HAVE COME ON AND ITS BAD STARTING AND GOES INTO LIMP HOME OCCASIONALLY AND THE HORN DOESN'T WORK AND THE INDICATORS OVER CANCEL.... ARGGGGGGGGHHHHH LET ME OUT.

P0335 crank sensor, rail pressure too low, rail pressure moitoring, clutch switch, can communication failure, Air con sensor. etc etc etc

And What "TIME" Will it be ready and how much will it be. ??????????????

Tony.

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 13, 2010, 8:55 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"

Hi Tony

You sound a little "battle scarred" & who can blame you. I am a few years behind you & I often look for an escape route too!

There ought to be a TV program that demonstrates the difficulties that we face in our trade. Instead of continuously highlighting the rogue element, it would be nice if some balance could be bought. The public are aware of the problems that face others in their careers. Medical workers & errrm refuse collectors (don't make me laugh), through programs like Grime Fighters & Casualty are represented well, yet we are all portrayed as robbing barstewards. Remember the TV debacle called "The Garage"? That Jock fella, what a tosser. Although mildly amusing, he just added to the stereotype of the garage owner & made us all look bad.

The fact is that we are faced with a huge variety of challenges each day, that would have most sane folk running for the hills on day one!

I don't know about others, but I am finding it harder to bite my tongue these days, with customers who demand the impossible & even worse, they want it for nowt!

Phewwww Rant over

Cheers all

Dave

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 13, 2010, 11:03 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Mark Carter

Hi Dave, watch this space your dream may be closer than you think.

Tony, I agree totally, but it just makes it more important that we try to get it right first time, and that means having the right training, using the correct equipment and understanding the system we are trying to fix.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 14, 2010, 12:08 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"

Hi Mark

A few questions regarding the training comment if y don't mind. Do you feel that many trainees are taking full advantage of the courses they attend? Do they question the things that are taught? Do you think that some just see it as a break from the workshop?

Is there a trend toward techs realising the need to train & fill the gaps in their understanding?

Sorry for the deep probing.

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Andy Evans <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5518' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 14, 2010, 7:51 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"

"Sorry for the deep probing"

I thought that was what went on at a Frank Massey seminar?

Andy E

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Paul Howd <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5151' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 14, 2010, 10:21 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Paul Howd

I often tell customers that I like watching "House"

Fixing cars is a bit like medicine (Particularly modern ones), Just because you are an expert doesnt mean that you wont go down a couple of dead ends before getting to the right awnser.

Indeed, sometimes it is an essential part of the process. (Think about the number of times you have spent considerable time "Checking" say camshaft timing because although you dont really think it is the problem you nevertheless feel that you have to make sure it isnt?)

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 14, 2010, 6:48 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Mark Carter

Hi Dave,
To answer some of your questions;
I would say that almost without fail the people that I have the pleasure of training on behalf of Bosch are keen to be there, eager to learn and ask the right type of questions to show that they are interested.

Most start on the first rung of the Diagnostic technician ladder and follow the program through to being a fully fledged Bosch Diagnostic technician (ATA) With a lessor number moving on and completing the Masters program.

Are enough people taking up training based on the increase in technology within the motor trade?
Maybe not.

I was offered a part time lecture's post at a local College a three years ago, teaching NVQ levels 2&3 and decided to "trial" the post as a colleague had advised that it may be beneficial before signing the paperwork for the year.

Well I am glad I did, it was an eye opener.
The way the colleges are funded is by a "bums" on seats, and I found that this manner of filling classrooms is a nightmare, with at least 50 percent of the group not really wanting to be there and having no interest in the motor trade or ever aspiring to be a technician.

Their only goal was to destroy any chance the other 50% may have had.

Since then I have talked to quite a few college lectures around the country and they all see the same.
So as to what condition the motor trade is going to be in, say 10 years time when technology has moved on yet again, I don't know.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Simon Dean <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5221' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 14, 2010, 7:20 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Simon Dean

Friday just gone Job 1

407...List...nsr indicator fault and also same display fault when pressing brake but all working ok.

2.Rear tailgate glass opens on its own and display message on dash.

3.Diesel min additive reached on dash

4.Car hesitates and judder under light acceleration

5.Front washer motor can be heard but not working

6.mot test

Will it be ready today?

So the problem with this car at 136000 miles(55 plate)is we have 4 errors in engine ecu

1.additive ecu no comms on network int.
2.Diesel pressue/flow fault permanent and int
3.particle filter blocked int
4.Egr valve position desired/actual in correct int.

So after refilling additive and getting additive ecu to comm..then on the road for a look at the filter mb...1000+ clogged....2 regens later got it down however filter over its replacement miles at 120k so need filter.

Customer has a complaint of hesitation poor running so i have a flow/pressure guide code intermittant....injector corrections at idle have deviations of 16% so worn.

So long story short 6 hours spent Friday fixing lights additive fault filter clogged.
Have to give customer the bigger picture tomorrow on 'possible other issues that may need addressing even though at present we are around 600 in....it will need injector test/overhaul.
Pump pressure checking after injectors sorted.
Egr highly likely required

Ready today?and if i don't cover the above with the customer and it returns with those int codes its my fault always!

.
Don't know about everyone else but i am spending so much time covering my rear because the products i am working on are so poor or neglected and in many cases scan tools poor due to bits of software missing etc its a minefield!

Glad its Sunday not ready for Monday yet!LOL

simon

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by david briscoe <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=ukat3054' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 14, 2010, 8:04 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"

i know how you feel all i seem to get over the last few months is crap that either hasnt even been serviced in years or jobs other garages have made a mess of. and the customer usually wants to know how much it will cost before i even open the bonnet. i do wish people could understand how complicated modern cars are and how hard our job can be to fix their cars.

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Tony Sefton <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5581' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 18, 2010, 7:37 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Tony Sefton

Hi Simon, Thats exactly the sort of job that i was thinking about, and for anyone thinking that these types of jobs are rare then they need to get into the real world,

The Peugeot that I mentioned ( not booked in, just arrived as we had been reccomended by another garage or in other words the other garages dont want to know so take it to Seftons cos hes daft enough to work on any old shit )

We code read it and got crank sensor, Coolant sensor, air con?? sensor and clutch switch.

I asked the customer what the complaint was and she said that last winter it was bad at starting and she wanted it checking out so that it wasn't the same this year.....

She then ran the car for a week and brought it in saying that it had been checked previously and was causing problems again so one of the lads told her to bring it in if we had worked on it previously, thinking that it might be a warranty job. ( not realising that it was only code read and should have been booked in properly when we had more time to work on it )

We code read it again and got Clutch switch, Coolant sensor, Rail pressure monitoring and Low rail pressure, ( no rail pressure codes the first time, no crank sensor this time )

Due to the codes, we replaced the CTS and found a leaking diesel pipe under the plastic inlet housing which we repaired due to a new one costing £101 + vat as you have to buy 3 pipes.

The customer collected the car and it broke down the day after with the recovery firm saying that it might still have air in the system from when we repaired it, they pumped the primer and it started.

The car then broke down again and the recovery firm could not get it started so they booked it back in as broken down, dead as a dodo, non runner, The Bloody thing Drove in on monday morning as though there was nothing wrong with it.

We code read it and it had one fault code CLUTCH SWITCH.

We Test drove the car for 30 miles before it caused a single problem and it misfired once for a split second.

We then code read it again and it had logged Crank sensor.

W.T.F did it not log crank sensor when it broke down twice and they flattened the battery trying to get it running. ???

We also then checked battery, charging. starting etc and found the battery at only 255 CCA instead of 480CCA, (we had previously informed customer of lazy battery and noisy starter),

During the test drive, we noticed the car pulling to the right and the steering wheel was not set straight ahead, the clutch only gripped at the top, the suspension rattled and bumped, and we found a Bald tyre which the customer asked us to get swapped, The tyre company found a nail in the other front tyre, 10 psi in one of the rear tyres, 2 x worn drop links and worn anti roll bar bushes.

Now that the car is something like Legal to be on the Road, One of my staff has gone home in the car to give it another 20 mile test drive.

My Question is How better could I have approached a job like this. ?? How do we Know what is going to happen. ?? How do we Explain to customers how long we need the vehicle for, how much it is likely to cost etc, when they nearly all expect the car to be fixed the same day and with a small budget . etc etc etc. ??

My new theory after believing that we shouldn't replace parts on Code reads alone, is that if the Code read comes up with CTS or Crank sensor or any item that can cause a non start situation, then it should be changed as a matter of course and then if the fault re-occurs then we should go deeper and check wiring, ecu's etc. but then you get the whingers that Blame you for fitting parts that weren't required.

Thanks Tony Sefton.

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Simon Dean on November 18, 2010, 8:50 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Message modified by board administrator November 20, 2010, 4:36 pm

Hi Tony
LOL my world as well tony.
I now use this procedure.

Code read and log 'every' code on the invoice and print this also.
Clear down short road test see whats returned.

Evaluate the owner the car and condition/miles.
You can no longer clear down and 'not' tell the customer,i consider all intermittent errors to be live and explain possibilities and possible issues that can happen.

I get the customer to authorize repair of returned codes and they now know intermittent codes may need attention...

All my invoices now show every code logged and which ones returned and which have been diagnosed and fixed...i now number them for customer ease.

We explain that intermittent errors can be live and car now needs to be monitored.
This ensures you don't get slated for my check light is back on!!

I am seeing C4 cars with 8 errors and all are live.
I kept this car for 2 weeks and they all returned.
Most are diesel flow and pressure solenoids sticking and ping light on.

Whats the cause poor maintenance and contaminated fuel/pilot error!

I write the time started and time finished on job card and try to charge all time..i neither made the car or sold them the car or abused the car

.....if i don't do this i work for nowt all day!

Simon

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Mark McGrath on November 18, 2010, 9:42 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Message modified by board administrator November 20, 2010, 4:36 pm

Tony Sefton "take for another 20 mile test drive.
I bet you had to put some juice in cant remember the last car we had in with enough juice in to take for a reasonable test drive

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Tony Sefton <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5581' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 18, 2010, 11:07 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Tony Sefton

how did you guess. ?? Yes the Warning light was on and we put £10.00 of diesel in it before test driving it.

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Steve Kefford <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT1094' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 19, 2010, 12:36 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Stephen Kefford

Thanks for this thread guys, makes me realize it isn't just me!

Maybe an initial assessment would be the answer, I have stood at the parts counter in the local Ford dealer a few times recently which is right next to the service desk and heard customers come in to book a faulty vehicle and the standard response is "we will perform an initial diagnosis for £75+vat and then we can tell you the likely cause of the fault and possible cost".

Could even have a card made up to show what the initial assessment includes, basic vehicle checks, test drive, code read, etc.

Sounds good to me, those that aren't willing to pay for the initial assessment aren't the type of customers you want and those that are willing to pay, at least you get your hours labour back if the vehicle turns out to be a pig that is likely to cost a fortune to put right before going to deep.

I figure about 45mins for basic checks with code read including print out and maybe short test drive, and 15 mins typing up a report.

I'm looking for ways to politely weed out the type of customer who wants everything as cheap as possible, the "can you just plug it in mate" brigade.

Steve

Re: citroen berlingo fixed

Posted by Simon Dean <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5221' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 19, 2010, 9:20 am, in reply to "Re: citroen berlingo fixed"
Simon Dean

Hi Stephen
Yes we allow 45 mins for initial evaluation.
We have tried to give a time to find a fix
however it has not worked.

We now say you are paying us to carry tests out on the vehicle for each error code where faults will then be found with this procedure.
Returned errors first and then intermittent if they return whilst with us or'now monitor vehicle and check light'if the car is returned to customer with int faults not looked at.

This seems to protect us from all the issues of poor and high miles/abused vehicles and intermittent faults.

HTH Simon

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