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Is this page dead?

Posted by rosa melano on 12/16/2024, 9:36 am

is this page dead? I don't see much activity as past years.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by 2 legs on 12/16/2024, 10:12 am, in reply to "Is this page dead?"

This is the most creative name you could come up with to post?

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Perhaps on 12/16/2024, 1:40 pm, in reply to "Is this page dead?"

Perhaps people just aren’t as into the trash talking anymore.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Dave G on 12/16/2024, 4:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

And perhaps that is all a certain percentage of society knows how to do? I would hope that people could still get together online and discuss wrestling civilly, and they do, but society in general seems to be attracted to the negative much more than the positive. If they get tired of talking trash, and don't know how to have a rational, logical debate about who is better than who, then not much happens, right?

It is kind of like the reffing situation. People love to complain about the reffing (and coaching) but there is no big line of people to get in there and do a better job in either one. It doesn't bother me much when people complain about the reffing in a match. Sometimes they are right and it was bad. Other times they don't have a clue. A week ago I reffed a match at a tournament when the kid lost 0-15. Afterwards I overheard the coach telling the kids how bad the officiating was. I didn't say anything but I looked at my table help and asked them was there even on controversial call in the match? They said not a one. I have no idea why the coach was saying what he did to the kid unless he was just trying to salvage the kids sanity after a butt whooping.

Isn't life fun?

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Support ur coaches and reffs on 12/16/2024, 10:43 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I do our society lives on complaints! Dave I have been around long time when you in the club you associated with was slammed like a WWE stone clold slam I commend you for sticking it out and thank you. For myself after 17 years as a head coach the complaints drove me out of my program that was some what successful with 9 top 10 finishes at state 50+ placers and 15 finalisit the complaints never ended so I got out did I mention my teams never had a loosing season now that me and my staff are gone not one winnig season in 3 years and the program is sinking hmm the calls are coming asking what will it take to get me to come back from the same generational families that chased me out. Where is this going, enjoy this it is such a fast ride than its over. Stop bitching and enjoy the ride. As far as coming back hell no you reap what you sew. STAY POSITIVE THE STUDENT WRESTLERS DESERVE THIS!!! GOD Bless all

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Slurpeemanoffire on 12/17/2024, 5:58 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I don't believe that the officiating is bad (sometimes), but I believe the biggest problem is the unexperienced table help. That is far more problematic nowadays. Paying attention to the refs calls during a tight match is tough

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Nah on 12/17/2024, 9:05 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

They were calling a lot of sus things even coaches watching from other teams were confused on calls. But I’m just glad we had refs!

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Wow on 12/17/2024, 11:46 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I saw some very bad reffing that cost kids matches at Edmonds. The refs were not moving into correct positions, calling points that were not there.

No I don't want to be a ref. I realize there is a shortage. I just expect refs to be able to move around and do the basics of their jobs.

Saw a new, young ref recently at a dual meet. She was too busy watching the match and not paying attention to the points, time or scoreboard. Things escalated between wrestlers a number of times and she showed no authority in correcting things.

It is what it is.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Dave G on 12/17/2024, 11:57 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I know that the tournament I was at it went pretty well. As the head official I had a couple of coaches come up and talk with me about some calls and actions by an official but that was constructive information and something I could talk to the involved ref during a down time.

I know I personally blew one call on an out of bounds takedown but nobody said anything. I think I went FREESTYLE mode on the call, which occasionally happens since I have a long history of reffing both styles. I didn't realize I blew it until we already were wrestling again and I thought about it. The coach didn't say a thing but in that case they should have. They could had asked me for a clarification since the feet did not end inbounds. I would have listened to that and realized what I had done and waived off the TD. Coaches, don't be afraid to ask for a clarification on a call if you know they may have made a mistake but also be ready to sit back down if the ref sticks with his call.

PS: When I blow a call early in the season it is usually burned into my brain and I don't do it again. We are learning the new rules right along with the coaches and wrestlers and all of us take until January before it becomes instinctive. I hope people also realize that I missed all of last season for a shoulder injury so I am "blowing off the rust" in the early season. Some of the other refs are too so give them some slack please. We need all of them.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Wow on 12/17/2024, 1:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

The biggest thing I noticed was the poor positioning of some of the refs which prevented them from getting a proper angle.

Sometimes it can prevent poor calls, or injury.

I'm fully aware that we have a ref shortage so I don't criticize too often. The call that impacted my wrestler is the ref made a 3 pt takedown call that was not, but his coaches did not challenge it. It cost him the match. I just wish the ref would have had a proper angle so we didn't have to rely on the volunteer coaching that doesn't always have a strong knowledge of the rules.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Dave G on 12/17/2024, 9:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I get it, no one likes a bad call. I would like to just comment on your choice of words however. Coaches are not technically allowed to "challenge" a call unless it is a mis-application of the rules. They can approach the ref and ask for a quick "clarification" but without the benefit of video review, which only happens in the national finals, the ref can't change a judgement call. He can only call what HE THINKS HE saw, not what the coach thinks he saw.

I always tell a coach "this is what I thought I saw". I could be wrong on what happened but the only info I can go on to make a call is what I think I saw, not what the coach thinks he saw. I personally really like video review because it allows us to SEE what really happened and you can then correct an incorrect call if it happened. I have used video review at nationals and also at the British Columbia Provincial Championships. It works well but it requires equipment, staff and time. I wouldn't count on it here at the state level.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Disagree on 12/18/2024, 1:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I'm a ref and yes you can change a judgment call. I had a coach ask me a great question one time when I called a takedown real quick..he said "did he have control beyond reaction time?" I thought for a sec and said no he actually didn't. Changed my call. Coaches appreciate honesty from referees and just because it's the call they made, doesn't mean it was right. Referees are hiding behind the term "judgment" too much to justify themselves. If we want to get better we need to get it right. Sometimes we make a call in a split second and realize the mistake. Nothing wrong with fixing it.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Dave G on 12/18/2024, 4:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I think we only differing on terminology.

What you are talking about (in my opinion) is a misapplication of the rule. You called a quick takedown, and when questioned on it, you realized he didn't have control beyond reaction time so your call was a misapplication of the rules and easily correctable. No change in your judgement (what you saw), only a change in how you applied the rule to it. If on the other hand your judgement (what you saw) was that he DID have control beyond reaction time (even though he didn't), would you change what you thought you saw(your judgement)?

Judgement is what you think you saw. It is what it is. Mis-application of the rule is when you saw it correctly but misapplied the rule. Do you see the difference there?

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by No on 12/18/2024, 6:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

This is the point Dave. If the ref doesn't want to change it, it's judgment every time. Everything is called judgment. Pride gets in their way.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Dave G on 12/18/2024, 7:35 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I know who this is and I have known you since you were a kid. I have always been kind and tolerant with you. Why are you trying to argue semantics with me? I am one of the refs most likely to change a call if the coach shows me I messed up a rule application. Not everything is judgement, but everything you think you see is.

I am sorry you have had disagreements with some refs. I was not one of them so I don't understand you arguing wording with me. I hope you realize we are saying the same thing from a different angle.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Well on 12/19/2024, 10:02 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

The problem isn't with you Dave. But you have seen all of the problems and seem to have stuck your head in the sand. You have seen the vice president tell a member to shut the eff up in a meeting. You have seen the poor treatment of new officials(ie the meeting to pick district assignments when they told one ref he couldn't ref because he was one meeting short and then they ran out of refs so they ended up needing him). You have seen the secret board meetings to break the constitution. You have seen them remove a member from a tournament because of a relative associated with a team, and yet they allow you to officiate a tournament where your son is a head coach. Don't you see the hypocrisy there? But you guys act like you wonder why people don't want to be officials.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by money man on 12/21/2024, 6:09 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

The TOP SECRET Constitution breaking board meetings. I really hate those. The first comment made is always, "Which one of the new refs can we screw over this week?"

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by For real on 12/22/2024, 6:27 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I think most people involved with wrestling in this state know Dave G. I watched him ref at state one year, at the end of day one he was heading for the exit, he was stopped probably ten times for a quick convo. Sometimes it is neat to be well known, other times it can be pain the arse. No matter where he refs somebody may claim conflict of interest.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Wow on 12/18/2024, 1:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

That's good info, thank you. I'm totally good and understanding of what you've explained. The issue as a parent/fan/coach is if the ref is doing the best job they can, especially at a higher level tournament, or between higher level kids, the ref needs to be in position. This might mean changing angles as the wrestlers change.

It might mean getting low or the right side to properly assess. In some cases there are two regs, e.g. in the finals, and neither are moving and wrong calls are still being made.

Refs shouldn't be guessing at what they're seeing when they are not in an ideal position to evaluate the match. I'm noticing this with the older more experienced refs, so I'm not blaming them exactly...I don't move like I used to.

Maybe video review can be a thing at most tournaments, but it would likely cause them to be twice as long.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Well on 12/18/2024, 2:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

Those older guys at Edmonds that can't get into position are the ones going to state. Have fun!

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by ageless ref on 12/21/2024, 6:14 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

Not only am I older but I am fatter too. Good thing I have X-Ray vision so I can see locking hands through the body. Bending over to make sure is a thing of the past. I also wait about two seconds to start counting near fall to upset the coaches in the corner.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Opposite on 12/22/2024, 7:51 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

In this case you gave points during a stalemate, you called something to be dangerous, then missed a kid attempting to blow my kids knee out which he still healing from.

But yah, nice work.(I realize you're being satirical but I am not.)

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by By Pham on 12/17/2024, 9:40 am, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

I think coaches and parents are most of the problem in this state and I'll use a couple examples to illustrate this point. It is not the refs.
1. At the state tournament, there was a point where coaches were calling for coaches reviews on obvious judgement calls that were not misapplications of rules. They waited about 5-10 minutes to get their reviews denied, delaying the tournament, and later complaining that their kids lost because of a terrible call. I get that you want to advocate for your kids, but playing the victim does nothing to help these kids deal with a loss. Then I see Coach Feist in the finals and his kid is on the short end of a questionable call and he tells his wrestler to wrestle through this and in the end doesn't blame anyone for the loss. These two approaches are polar opposites and I don't need to tell anyone which builds character and which builds victims.
2. I was volunteering at Gut Check last year because my daughter was wrestling in it. I saw a friend I hadn't spoken to in a year and wanted to catch up. As we were talking, a coach interrupted us and said that he had an injured athlete. I asked if she was still wrestling and he answered that she was done wrestling for the day, but she was waiting for me to evaluate her injury. I explained to him that I would see her right after my conversation and he proceeded to tell me that I needed to see her now because she was waiting.
When you as any coach about his philosophy he will tell you that wrestling helps deal with adversity and we are here to build character. Yet, when it comes to the situations where they are able to educate their athletes and expose them to how unfair the world really is, they will blame the ref or something else when in the end, it may not matter how prepared you can be, things don't always turn out your way. These are the moments when we are able to make the biggest difference in the lives of our athletes, but instead we turn our kids into victims.
The level of disrespect and victimhood exhibited by coaches is terrible. The reason why some coaches are sought out is that they are great coaches who look out for the well-being of their athletes. These coaches are using wrestling as a tool to build character and not build victims.
Someone in another thread mentioned that these kids work way too hard for refs to be unprepared when reffing and told them to just be better. Parents and coaches, let us be better! People make mistakes and sometimes things happen that are out of our control, but let's be better in building character in our athletes. I know I will get some backlash for these comments, but after year of just observing as a fly on the wall, it is absolutely clear that our coaches(including myself) are the problem.

Re: Is this page dead?

Posted by Dave G on 12/17/2024, 12:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Is this page dead?"

As always, your comments here are always appreciated. Pham's post are always a must read for users of this site.

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