Posted by Alan Kane on September 25, 2012, 7:35 am
Year of Manufacture *: na
Hi all,
Being in the business of buying and selling time, as we all are, even if we don’t always view it that way, i am currently watching job times very carefully. With this in mind, would anyone with experience care to comment on the real life times for a few jobs please? I have access to book times but I have never found these to bear any resemblance to real life. This is just to help me judge what is happening.
Mitsubishi Pajero 2.5 2006 timing belt kit? Ford fiesta 1.4TDCi EGR valve remove and refit? Seat Alhambra 1.9 TDi 1999 Turbo remove and refit?
Thanks
Re: All
Posted by Lee Mackintosh on September 25, 2012, 8:20 am, in reply to "All" Lee Mackintosh
Can't really advise on the repair times but i recently (6months ago) done a timing belt kit on a 57 plate L200 and it certainly was no where near the book time of 1.7hrs.
I had to remove the radiator, degas the A/C just so i could undo the crank pulley bolt with my airgun as it was tight. You could possibly do it if you could lock up the engine but i'd rather make sure i didn't slip and damage the radiator.
I reckon 4-5hrs is near to the mark for a proper job.
Just as note which i couldn't believe but Mitsubishi don't actually change all the rollers when doing timing belts. When i asked for a price of all the bits required he asked me what i meant.
I said well all the bits your workshop change when doing belts, his reply was just the belt.
I used an ADL kit in the end IIRC. must say though that the pulley's removed where still in excellent order not your usual cheap plastic rubbish.
Its actually a nice belt to change once all the covers are stripped out.
Re: All
Posted by Steve Norman on September 25, 2012, 8:57 am, in reply to "All" Steve Norman - Administrator
Hi Alan.
I think the problem here is a lack of experience on particular jobs. Yes there are some jobs that are way out on book times, but most can be done within time if you have done many on that particular model.
Take for example the injection pump belt on a TDV6 Disco 3, quite a few garages have phoned me saying how do they change it, the've been on the job three hours & haven't got it off yet. The book time is 1.2hrs & it can be done in that time. But I have had to do lots to speed things up to know how to do them... I think the first one took me about three hours!
So, in many cases the customer is paying for the garages lack of experience.
rgards SteveRegards Steve
Re: All
Posted by Alan Ganter on September 27, 2012, 7:42 pm, in reply to "Re: All" Alan Ganter
Just to Add to that.
There are still a few jobs left that if you are charging book times you can make a good profit.
Clio clutches for example
Re: All
Posted by Andy Mason on September 28, 2012, 9:33 am, in reply to "Re: All" Andy Mason
It also seems to depend on who's book your getting the time from, and adding all the extras that are attached. Autodata times are often more reliable, but completely different to Vivid. Its not just repair times, the differences in service schedules and service times are also a nightmare, Andy
Re: All
Posted by ian(n) on September 29, 2012, 9:22 pm, in reply to "Re: All" Ian Nicholas
Hi Alan, as it happens, i am now having a pleasant evening with some friends, one is a mitsu mtech.. he reckons 4 hrs for an englishman, 3 for an irishman! heheh ps i didn't ask the time for a welshman
Re: All
Posted by Alan Kane on September 30, 2012, 10:45 am, in reply to "Re: All" Alan Kane - Administrator
Hi all, and thanks for the replies.
Lee, I think your time is about right if a little high. As it happens i have done one since I posted. I did it a lot quicker than my mechanic did @ 3 ¾ hours. (He is now my ex mechanic which kinda makes the purpose of this thread mute)
Steve, absolutely agree. I am watching job times to keep an eye on staff more than anything else. The trick is to find a balance between speed and quality that allows labour sales to be profitable without roasting the customer. I am not the quickest mechanic in the world but I don’t break things and they usually start first time after I have put them back together. I have had quick guys work for me before who caused problem and slow guys who were very good but difficult to make a profit on.
Iannnnn, spot on I think. Probably, your mate didn’t have an opinion on a Welsh man’s time because he never saw one working
Cheers
Alan
Re: All
Posted by Lee Mackintosh on September 30, 2012, 11:36 am, in reply to "Re: All" Lee Mackintosh
I'd much rather have quality over speed any day with in reason.
If say for example you have a book time of 5 hours and it took 6hrs i wouldn't really mind as i know what its like in the real world but if it starts to creap up then i'd not except it.
Whats the point to having a mechanci who can do it in 3.5 hours but then a day or to later it comes back just to find it was caused by the mechanic rushing and it takes 2 hours to correct.
Ok some might argue its still only 5.5hrs but then you've most likely got to either stop other work booked in or re-schedule work to accomidate your come backs so eithe way there's good/bad points.
Re: All
Posted by terry taylor on September 30, 2012, 10:09 pm, in reply to "Re: All" Terry Taylor
hi we decided for an experiment to buy a cheap clock card machine were everyone clocks on to a job then every one then clocks off,flippen eck what a eye opener 10 mins here 10 mins there 2 hrs quoted job time 2.25hrs 10 mins getting car in 10 mins getting car,we needed to know if the techs were on the ball or our quotes were way out bit of both,still evaluating wouldnt go back now,terry
Re: All
Posted by John White on October 2, 2012, 12:07 pm, in reply to "Re: All" Tony White
Interesting how this thread has changed from repair times to how long it takes techinians to do the repairs, I have a techinian who is very good but so slow, 3hrs to do a 2hr job, 6hrs to do a 3hr job, worst one so far a few weeks ago 10hrs to to a job I sold out at 5hrs!! It's like, "well doesn't matter how fast or slow I work my wages won't change". Have talked to him a few times over the last 18 months about his speed, seems ok for a day or two then just goes back to his old routine. How I'm not a fast fit centre but I do expect certain jobs to be done in time, expecially service times & jobs that have been done a few times. Or am I being unfair? Taken him 3hrs to do a connect front wheel bearing so far today!! Having another chat tomorrow. John
Re: All
Posted by Ian Whitmore on October 3, 2012, 8:11 am, in reply to "Re: All" Ian Whitmore
Hi 10 hours to do a 5 hour job, you have to be loosing money on this, Perhaps another serious chat with him & actually show him the costs envolved in running a business and prove to him that if he continues on like this you will go bankrupt. Well thats not going to happen as your going to sack him first. Lots of employees only see what they get paid & what you charge, they dont undersatnd everything else, so when explained in child like terms it can make a big difference. Expecting a decent days work of a decent days wages is not to much to ask in this day & age of unemployment is it ??
Re: All
Posted by Andy Mason on October 3, 2012, 10:04 am, in reply to "Re: All" Andy Mason
What is the legal position about sacking somebody for not performing properly? The law is probably stacked on there side. They probably have more legal right to be there than you. Andy
Re: All
Posted by Kevin Apps on October 3, 2012, 4:00 pm, in reply to "Re: All" Kevin Apps
John.
"Have talked to him a few times over the last 18 months about his speed, seems ok for a day or two then just goes back to his old routine."
I think you should have moved on by now and issued a written warning.
Kev.
Re: All
Posted by Pete Mutlow on October 3, 2012, 5:53 pm, in reply to "Re: All" Peter Mutlow
Hi John,
I know I might have a GCE A Level in "Stating The Bleeding Obvious", but of course there is always a danger of this fella cocking up something expensive in an effort to get his times down....unless of course he is skiving off which I doubt. Fortunately I only employ myself and pay a pittance!
Regards
Pete M
Re: All - Repair times #
Posted by Philip Cockburn on October 3, 2012, 10:50 pm, in reply to "All - Repair times #" Philip Cockburn
Hi everyone, To return to the initial topic of this post, casting aside who needs sacked beaten-up or shot, I have thought about this post many times today, as this is something that is part of my everyday life in our garage & never very far from my thoughts at most other times either (the losses we all suffer is a very real cost to all our businesses, yet most of the time we seem to accept them, scuff our feet for a bit then move on), only when someone like Alan brings it up, does it get a bit more thought with possible changes in mind.
I am now in my forties, with a little executive spread round my midrifft (some refer to this as a being overweight, which does no favours when trying to beat the ICME manual!). I dont do much general mechanical stuff these days & tend to do a mixture of general management, technical back-up & any difficult diagnostic work we get in, but when someone is on holiday I have a go & must say that I find it a real eye-opener these days. I have come to realise that it is of vital importance that anyone who is in charge of a workshop & its charge-out rates should either have a go at doing some of the jobs so they can experience just how difficult some jobs can be, or at very least, spend some time in the workshop to get a feel for how issues can arise & where money can/is being lost. I am also very aware that specialising is the only way to best efficiency (we are VAG specialists, still do many makes, but are trying to reduce the number of makes all the time, where possible). Back to charging time, we have recently taken on a new mechanic from the local VW dealer & for most VAG jobs he can do in a very respectable time, in fact some jobs he can smoke though (timing belts & waterpumps are a breeze, Golf TDi`s are easily done in just over an hour inc coolant change & we charge 3 hrs, book time of 2.5 for TBK + .5 for pump/flush & bleed), gearboxes fly out & in as though half the bolts were missing before he started & although he makes good use of air tools, starts all threads by hand & final checks with a spanner or bar, yet the same man can get in a right knot over some brake-pipes & we have been able to show him that you can press a new bush into a suspension arm & with a little care, you can even strip a brake caliper to clean & grease a sticking piston without having to fit a new one every time! & although he seems to know every common place to look for a broken wire or vacuum hose, does not know how to read a wiring diagram, so I guess what I am trying to point out, is that experience is a key factor in what you can charge for a man`s time doing a job & every man will take a different time to do a similar task. To charge this out though, can be difficult as you all know, so for some reason we all use book times, but also seem to forget that this is only a guide that to my understanding was worked out on a new car, by a mechanic with brand experience & all data & tools on his lap. If you do a steering rack on a 6 year old car, the time may be 2.2 hrs new, given that so many components could be tight, rounded, damaged etc, it may not be unrealistic to take a further 50% on top of this, esp by the time the tracking is set & may need a tweak to get the wheel straight, despite the laser alignment gear etc, but how many allow this at time of quote? We try to write on the job card any difficulties & charge extra if heat is req`d (can seem a bit mean, but its an eye-watering experience to nip down for a change of gas bottles these days). Another thing, if a mechanic hits problems & we have quoted a price, most of the time we roll over & spit chips, wishing we have never seen the job, but what's wrong with contacting the customer to advise the car may not be ready tonight due to complications & pointing out that the extra labour required will change the initial costing & they are welcome to come & inspect, this could make the difference between profit/break-even or loss. I often look at the repair times on Autodata & consider if the job really could be done on a car of whatever age in that time & base my price on realistic experience, I also often wonder about the time I am looking at & wonder how I would approach the same situation if the time was different? e.g if you took three hours to do a job & there was no problems at all, then saw that the book time was 2.2, would you charge 2.2 & think I must get better at doing that? would you charge 3 anyway cause that`s what it took or if in fact the book time was 4 hours what then? If when quoting, (something I am not very keen to do or good at) should we add say 15% as a buffer? or are we too afraid we wont get the work? I had a friend who did that & it seemed to work well for him. Most of our work is not priced, which i realise we are very lucky with, but when asked to price a job, these days i often ask if they are phoning round looking for the cheapest price or the want the best job? & explain that as a company, we are proud of our reputation & trying to make a good job, not be the cheapest & that you cant do both which gives us a chance to up-sell our quality to them. When we price a service, we advise the difference between a dealer 'pen' service & how we strip & lub brakes, clean & grease wheels & use a torque wrench so they can get the wheel off at the roadside. we advise what a service is for & in fact the main reason for doing so is to get to the next one with least fuss & drama, in the safest manner! We currently have two mechanics, myself & a receptionist + my semi-retired parents involved, last year we had more staff & found that the more men in the workshop, the more chatting, lost potential, sneaky days-off etc, by watching how we charge & the work we accept, we can make similar money currently & not take on jobs just because we need to try to fill the diary (saves a lot of quotes & dealing with lots of people we have never seen before). We sublet our MOTs & have often thought of doing our own, yet often feel sorry for the people that do, because i`m sure you want/need the test fee, but may not always want the repairs, which gets me back to specialising/experience or only taking on what you know, we make good money sorting most things VAG, get on well with Volvo`s, BM`S, Fords etc but never make a bean sorting Mercs or modern Landrovers & would cut-off a testicle before taking in Alfa`s, Smart For Two`s, Espace`s or shitty old Jag`s!