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Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Coach Anaya on 3/10/2023, 12:17 am

Hello all!

I just experienced my first wrestling season in Oregon. There have been some big differences in Oregon compared to Washington in how things are done regarding wrestling.

One item, among others, sticks out and it is what Oregon does during post season qualifying tournaments...specifically on the consolation side of a bracket.

Some brief info regarding Oregon is they don't have two qualifying post-season tournaments. They only have a regional tournament before state.

During the regional tournament they swapped a consolation placement, in rounds prior to placing rounds, if two wrestlers from the same team were to meet up, they would separate them. This would keep from teammates knocking each other out prior to the placing rounds. This was only done on the consolation side and not the championship side. Was cool to see teammates not knocking one of them out early in a tournament on the consolation side and helped teams get more kids to state and the best kids to state.

At state in a 16 person bracket, for example, if wrestler A beat wrestler B in the first round (both positioned on the top half of the bracket). Wrestler B moves onto the consolation bracket without a crossover happening (going straight back). Wrestler B then wins their next two consolation matches putting them into the consolation quarterfinal. Wrestler A then ends up losing their next match, championship side quarterfinal. Wrestler A now goes to the consolation side but still on the same side (upper half) of the consolation bracket. He wins his first consolation side match which then puts him in the consolation quarter-final against the same kid he beat in the first round, wrestler B.

Here is where Oregon switches their consolation matches to prevent these two kids from wrestling each other again before the medal matches. They drop wrestler A down to the bottom half of the consolation bracket into the other quarter final. In this particular example, because of the switch, wrestler A and wrestler B are now able to work their way back into a spot to wrestle each other for 3rd and 4th place. Had the switch not happened, one of these kids would not have placed let alone meet up for 3/4th place. (Oregon only placed top 6)

Has anyone ever seen this done before and would WIAA and coaches ever consider this?

At first I was skeptical about the idea but when I saw it done at state and where I felt the two correct kids ended up going for 3rd/4th...I was impressed and sold on the idea.

Side note: how these two got a match against each other in the first round is another story. Lol!

Thoughts?

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Curious Coach on 3/10/2023, 6:49 am, in reply to "Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Not against it, but if kids are properly seeded then it doesnt matter to me when my kids wrestle. WIAA doesnt seed for $hit, so its all random. Only tournament of the year where kids don't get seeded is the most important one of the year. So, until they start to seed, I don't believe we should get too much else added. They can't even build their own brackets correctly at this point.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Coach Anaya on 3/10/2023, 7:01 am, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

That's also something Oregon does at state. They separate the first four regional champs and then seed other wrestlers that meet seeding criteria.

That seemed to work out pretty good except when you have two highly ranked wrestlers in the same region meet in the finals. The best the loser can get seeded at state is #5 behind the regional champs.

I did like how they seeded the state tournament versus what Washington does.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 8:39 am, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

The other coach is an idiot. Washington does seeding based on regional champs just like Oregon does. The only difference I'm hearing is the first thing you mentioned about avoiding teammates. If people are going to post, don't be dramatic because you disagree with something. It negates your whole argument when there is a lie in part of it.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Coach on 3/10/2023, 11:01 am, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Big 9, let me slow it down for you. Seeding based on regional champs is not seeding. Seeding, puts all wrestlers where they should be. He just said that in Oregon they place the regional winners, THEN SEED the rest. That is better than what we do. Once you understand how seeding works, you can complain about my post.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 12:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Washington seeds everyone based on regional finish. That is seeding. Maybe it's not the way you like, but it is.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 12:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Also, after reading what Oregon does, Washington does the exact same thing. We separate the regional champions and put 1 against 4, 2 against 3. I sure hope you can understand that since I slowed it down for you.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Coach on 3/10/2023, 12:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Dear Jack Wagon, seeding 4 people who won regional tournaments is not seeding the tournament. The tournament should have the best wrestler seeded 1, then the next best as 2, then 3 all the way down to 16. We separate 4 people based on how they do at a regional tournament. If the four best wrestlers are in a region, they should be seeded 1-4 in the bracket. They are not... they are just distributed. This is not seeding and it is not what we do at any other tournament all year. So not sure how to explain what seeding is to you, but I see you're from the Big 9 and maybe aren't getting a proper education over there.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 1:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

How is this any different than what Oregon does? It is seeding based on previous state finish and the rest is based on regional finish. Sounds exactly like what Oregon does.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Lol Big9 on 3/10/2023, 12:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Big9 let me slow it down for you. Our seeding is not proper because seeding the 4 regional champs is not how it would go if it was done correctly. If we have a returning state champ who gets upset in the regional final, he doesn't get properly seeded and then could be wrestling another state champ in the quarterfinals. This shouldn't happen. Also, lets say one region has the top three kids in the state. They should be seeded 1 2 and 3 overall. A better example, in the NCAAs, David Carr and Keegan O'Toole are from the same conference #1 and #2, and they are ranked 1 and 2 in the NCAA tournament. With our system, O'Toole wouldn't be seeded in one of the 1 spots, and then it screws up the whole bracket.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 1:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

You guys brought this up based on what Oregon does. How is this any different? The only difference is the way they treat teammates. You are all up on the way Oregon seeds, but their seeding system sounds just like Washington. Maybe Coach Anaya can shed some light. By the way, seeding based on regional finish and previous state finish is seeding. Like I said, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not seeding.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Coach on 3/10/2023, 1:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

No, you just missed the point. He was talking about separating teammates at the state tournament. I responded saying that I think adding something like that in is not that important. I would much rather seed the tournament correctly, if we had to pick something to change, it would be that.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 1:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

You also said it was random which it is not. Please re-read your post

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by lol Big9 on 3/10/2023, 1:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Big9, it's clear that you don't understand how they "seed" state.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 1:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Bro,
You're an idiot. Seeding by any definition is based on prioritizing wrestlers based on previous performance and finishes in previous competitions. How is our system not seeding? I think it is you who doesn't understand what seeding means.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by lol Big9 on 3/10/2023, 1:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

The more you talk the dumber you look. Did you not read my explanation above? Only regional champs get seeding criteria out of their region. So again, just for you slow Big9 people, lets say a region has two returning state champions. One of them is going to get 2nd in the region. So now, randomly, one of the other regional champs is going to get that state champion in the second round of the tournament. And whoever draws him is random. If those two wrestlers are the two best in the bracket, they should be seeded 1 and 2. With the way we "seed" the bracket, all of the regional champs are considered one seeds and are only separated if they are returning placers. So what if one of those one seeds is a state runner up. Now he could be wrestling a returning state champion in the quarter finals instead of the semi finals. All of the 2s are random and so are the 3s and 4s. 4s go against 1s and 2s agaings 3s. What if the region is tough and the 4 seed is a returning placer? He wrestles a "1" from another region and that "1" most likely will lose. They should be seeded 1-16.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 2:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Your explanation is still seeding based on previous performance. It's just not based on what you think it should be. Keep explaining all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that you just disagree with the seeding criteria.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 2:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Let me make it super simple for you.
State is seeded:
1. First seeding criteria is regional finish.
2. Second seeding criteria is past state finish.

Any questions?

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by lol Big9 on 3/10/2023, 2:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Yes, what happens to a guy who won state last year and is slightly injured at regionals and defaults to 4th place.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by lol Big9 on 3/10/2023, 2:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Also, please tell me of those 4 regional champions, who is the 1, 2, 3, and 4?

seed definition:
: to schedule (tournament players or teams) so that superior ones will not meet in early rounds

With our system, superior wrestlers meet in the quarter finals all the time.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 2:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

I didn't say the system is perfect. As long as the top four are separated, it's as fair as it gets. There is no perfect system, but we do have a seeding system. That is my point.
Also, see number 2 on my criteria list. I do recognize that when there is no previous state placer, there is randomization as to the quartiles, but it is seeded. So you still can't defend the statement that our state is totally random. There is a seeding system.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by lol Big9 on 3/10/2023, 2:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

You are wrong. If a state placer is not a regional champion, the do not get separated in any way.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by lol Big9 on 3/10/2023, 3:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

It is random which number 2 from each region is going in a quartile with a 1. 2s do not get any separation based on previous state placing. You have to win the region to be separated from another regions 1.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 3:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

That's why criteria number 1 is not number 2. I think you should follow the logic. Even previous state champs need to win regionals to get seeded.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Lol Big9 on 3/10/2023, 3:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Just when I thought you couldn’t get any dumber…

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Big9 on 3/10/2023, 3:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Bro,
You hurl insults without really responding to anything I've written.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Hmmmm on 3/11/2023, 7:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

#1 in one region can be worse than #3 in a different region! So it is kinda lame!

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Okay on 3/10/2023, 4:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

And how do you plan on seeding other than how WA and OR do it right now? The states base it on post-season results from the previous week and is totally objective as opposed to subject seeding, like the arguing at a seeding meeting. Do you suggest a seeding meeting for every weight group in the tournament? That would be around 95-100 weights for all divisions. How do you suggest they handle the volume for the meeting or do you think they just use the rankings from this site and let'er rip? Have your totally thought this through?

BTW, I do like the idea that Gus originally brought up on this thread.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Not that hard on 3/10/2023, 6:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

You could start by seeding all returning state placers first, no matter their regional placing. Once that's done, use regional placing as the next criteria.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by Coach Anaya on 3/10/2023, 9:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

Oregon seeding is different depending on class. 6A is big class and they have a 21 person bracket and 5A has 16. They only seed up to 8. Here is what they do for 5A which is the class I'm coaching in now.

Pool 1 is made up of regional champs. Pool 1 has 7 levels of seeding criteria if needed.

Pool 2 Composed of returning state place finishers who are not regional champs. This pool can include any wrestler qualifying for the OSAA State Championship who was not a Special District Champion, regardless of the wrestler’s qualifying place finish in their respective regional tournament. This pool also has 7 levels of seeding criteria to sort them out.

Pool 3 Composed of any remaining regional Runners‐up who were not members of Pool 2; i.e., regional runners‐ up who are not returning state place winners from the immediately previous year. This pool has 5 levels of seeding criteria if needed.

Once the seeds have been established for a weight class in a classification, the remaining unseeded wrestlers will be drawn into the bracket using the following procedures.

(Copied below- note that SD stands for special district which is the regional tournament)

1) Quarterfinal bracket composition. Each quarterfinal bracket will have one SD champion, one SD runner‐up, one SD third‐place finisher and one SD fourth‐place finisher.
2) Final bracket composition.
a) Final bracket composition is highly variable, depending upon the SD place finish of the seeds in each quarterfinal bracket and the SDs those seeds represent. Therefore, what follows is the “Goal State” of each bracket, which may not be achievable based on the SD and/or the SD place finish represented by the seeded wrestlers.
(1) No more than one of any of the four possible SDs and no more than one of any of the four possible SD place finishes represented within it; i.e., each quarterfinal bracket has one SD champion, one SD runner‐up, one SD third‐place finisher and one SD fourth‐place finisher, each from a different SD.
(2) Simultaneously, the SD champion and SD runner‐up from each SD will be separated into opposite semifinal brackets.
3) “Goal State” will not be achievable in any scenario where any two seeded wrestlers in a semifinal bracket represent the same SD; e.g., #1 and #8 seed represent the same SD.
a) Every effort will be made to obtain the most equal distribution of both SD representatives and SD place finishers as possible.
b) Recognize also that any unequal distribution of SDs in one semifinal bracket, and possibly one or both quarterfinal brackets within a semifinal bracket, must be reflected in at least one other quarterfinal bracket. For example, if the regional champion and runner up from a SD are in the same half bracket due to seeding, there MUST be a champion and runner up from another SD in the other half bracket.
4) Each quarterfinal bracket shall be comprised of a SD champion, runner‐up, third‐place finisher and fourth‐place finisher, each from a different SD. Distribution of place finisher representation has priority over distribution of SD representatives; i.e., each quarterfinal bracket will always contain a SD champion, a SD runner‐up, a SD third‐place finisher and a SD fourth‐place finisher.
5) Qualifiers from the same SD will not be paired together in the first round of competition.
6) Once seeded wrestlers are determined and placed on the appropriate bracket line if the #1 and #5 are from the same SD then the #5 and #6 seeds will switch designated bracket lines.
7) Once the place finish and SD distribution has been determined, the remaining unseeded wrestlers shall be randomly drawn, to the greatest extent possible, to remaining available bracket lines that satisfy the composition requirements stated above.

Sounds simple enough

Posted by Wrestler on 3/10/2023, 9:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

I have complete confidence that the WIAA can handle that.

Re: Sounds simple enough

Posted by LOL on 3/10/2023, 10:18 pm, in reply to "Sounds simple enough"

My head started to hurt reading that criteria to the point I stopped reading at 3. What we have works fine. At regionals my son went 2,1,1,3 and was still in the state semis each year, just as if he had been a regional champ each year. If you eff up at regionals you just have a tougher draw to the semis. You deal with it, some years better than others.

Re: Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season

Posted by NO on 3/10/2023, 1:18 pm, in reply to "Would WA St. ever consider switching consolation matches during post season"

It sounds like a nice plan, but it's actually not fair to the other kids that get switched. If the seeding is done properly, lets say the two kids on the same team are the 4 and 5 seed. And the other consolation match is the 3 and 6 seed. If I'm the 3 seed I want the 6 seed. It's not fair to give them a better seeded kid.

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