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160 4A Finals

Posted by Fan on 2/19/2023, 9:17 am

I would like to give out a special award to the official in the finals. There is no other ref that inserts himself into a match better or more consistently than he does. Pretty sure he thinks we all came to see him. Next year we should get him on a podium so he can get a photo or two taken. Congrats!!

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Yup on 2/19/2023, 9:29 am, in reply to "160 4A Finals "

Yeah kinda lame that kid lost twice in one match.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Question on 2/19/2023, 10:26 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Was the call at the end for a head scissors? Not sure how that assistant ref could have seen it from the other side like that.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by No on 2/19/2023, 10:33 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

He gave a match point because the kid gave his coach a hug when he won before shaking hands and getting his hand raised. Time had expired, match over. Rules committee made up of head official and two guys from the WIAA that don’t know the rules themselves, decided the ref was correct and keep things rolling.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Another ref on 2/19/2023, 10:55 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Please tell me this is not true. You have got to be kidding. I thought it was for head scissors at the end. Did the GK coach ask for the point on the hug??

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by B-dad on 2/19/2023, 11:03 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Yes, it was for the hug, "illegally leaving the mat".

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Wondering on 2/19/2023, 3:18 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

It wasn’t for throwing his head gear about 50 feet backwards into the crowd and hitting someone in the chest??

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Wow on 2/19/2023, 6:23 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Bet that really hurt.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Appalling on 2/19/2023, 10:33 am, in reply to "160 4A Finals "

For real! Atrocious. He should be ashamed for what he did to both of those kids. Its bad enough when an official inserts himself in the match but he did it from start to finish and found a way to do it after the whistle. Would love to sit with him and review the film of that match and have him explain just what in the h*ll he was thinking (because clearly he wasn't) and how he could justify any of his calls. I usually try to give officials the benefit of the doubt but this guy was horrible. If there is an Ass Hat of the tournament award he won it hands down. Would be great to hear from fellow officials(moderator included) on how this played out.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by B-dad on 2/19/2023, 11:01 am, in reply to "160 4A Finals "

That same "penalty" happened 20 times on other mats and at least one time on that same mat (with a full coach body throw) and no other refs made that call. Then happened twice after the 160 match with no violation given. Ref should be ashamed, but he probably could care less.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Unbelievable on 2/19/2023, 11:12 am, in reply to "160 4A Finals "

That finals match was the most shameful and unbelievable thing I’ve seen in a long time. It was downright heartbreaking that an official would be allowed to interfere in a state finals match to that degree. As I sat in the stands and watched the manifestation of one of the biggest officiating failures ever, I was saddened for both wrestlers as there hard work and dedication was being dictated and decided by a third entity. It was not only unacceptable, it was appalling and disgraceful to the sport of wrestling. And to the young man who finally had his state title and dreams stripped away....well my hats off to you. Your sportsmanship and resilience was commendable. Shame on you WIAA and your unqualified referee interference on one of your biggest and most important responsibility days.You should be ashamed of yourself and your sub par/low quality officiating. Do better.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Worst part on 2/19/2023, 11:36 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Here’s the worst part: this was not a judgement call. The rule book is 100% clear that once the time on the clock has expired, the match is over and no match points can be awarded. A team point could be deducted, but a match point cannot be awarded. There is no judgement here. This was a 100% misapplication of the rules.

On top of all that, think how many times a kid runs to his coach after a state finals win. In my 35 years around this sport I have never once seen a ref try to do this. Truly alarming that he almost stole a state title from that kid.

Finally, the fact that the tournament committee agreed with him blows my mind. How did none of them have a rule book? This is the most important tournament of the year, and they totally blew it. I hope there is some training and changes made to avoid this type of thing in the future.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Yakima on 2/19/2023, 3:07 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Same guy made the bad call in the 126 semis

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Expert? on 2/19/2023, 5:01 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

By the Book, what say ye? I’m sure you can quote us chapter and verse on this.

Rule defining "end of match"

Posted by By the Book on 2/19/2023, 5:56 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

As it turns out, I can indeed cite chapter and verse on this particular rule - because I literally wrote that rule in 1998. That's a big reason why people started calling me "By the Book".
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For reference, in the NFHS Rules Book, Rule 5-17-2b defines when the wrestling match concludes - when time expires at the end of the 3rd period (for a Decision). So, at the very instant the referee blows the whistle to signal that time has expired, the match is over, and there can be no more match points scored, and no more rulings which would determine who wins the match. I will leave it at that. The rule is very straightforward to apply.

Re: Rule defining "end of match"

Posted by Coach on 2/19/2023, 8:17 pm, in reply to "Rule defining "end of match""

Great Rule! And it should have been followed. Dock team points if needed. But the rule is a great one.

Re: Rule defining "end of match"

Posted by Another ref on 2/19/2023, 8:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Rule defining "end of match""

Pretty sad that ref and the whole committee didn’t know the rule.

Re: Rule defining "end of match"

Posted by Mind blown on 2/19/2023, 8:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Rule defining "end of match""

Thats BTB for clarifying. The way this played out absolutely blows my mind. A kid almost had a state title stolen from him. Not on a questionable stall call, no close calls on a takedown, not a question of whether time was out in the clock. This was a straight up miss application of the rules that almost screwed this kid. How did none of the multiple refs involved know the rule? And why didn’t some other ref on the side run up and set them straight? Screw protocol, we can’t let the wrong kid win!!! I’ve never seen anything like this. I’m just glad the correct kid ended up winning.

Re: Rule defining "end of match"

Posted by From the back row... on 2/20/2023, 10:38 am, in reply to "Re: Rule defining "end of match""

Would disagree with, "no close calls on a takedown". The GK kid looked to have secured a takedown at the end of regulation. Judgment call so not much to be done about it, just saying. Overall sad that the officials got the whole thing so wrong.

Re: Rule defining "end of match"

Posted by What? on 2/20/2023, 10:56 am, in reply to "Re: Rule defining "end of match""

Clearly you don't know what a takedown is, or you were too far back in the row to see properly.

Re: Rule defining "end of match"

Posted by Coach Anaya on 2/19/2023, 10:25 pm, in reply to "Rule defining "end of match""

I agree with you but wonder if the official could have implemented the following rule despite the conclusion of the official time...

Time was officially over when the wrestler ran to his coach but did the official conclusion of the match occur? Does rule 6-5.1 and 6-5.2 apply? Wrestlers are to return to the center of the mat. The official had not confirmed the final score nor declared the final winner. The hand was not raised either.

It is clear the wrestler left the circle before those two things happened. So does the rule 5-27-1d apply which states a technical violation is given for leaving the wrestling area without the referee's permission?

We see celebrations happen like this all the time and this is the first time I've ever seen it called like this. It would certainly be in the best interest of all coaches and wrestlers to get official clarification of the application of these rules from the official's association or from WIAA at a minimum.

Crazy turn of events for all involved!!

End of match procedure

Posted by By the Book on 2/19/2023, 11:54 pm, in reply to "Re: Rule defining "end of match""

Rule 6-5 describes the procedure which occurs AFTER the match has concluded. Confirming the score means only making sure that everything recorded on the scoreshhet starting when the wrestler reported to the table (start of match) through the the final whistle (end of match) is accurate and was totalled correctly. At this point in time, no actions of either wrestler can be associated to the match score. Anything a wrestler does at that point would only be a violation that could result in a team point deduction - and never a match point.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Yep! on 2/19/2023, 10:39 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Chichenoff would have been in the finals. Can’t make mistakes like that at this level. Sad.

Two of the three worst calls of the tourney (the stall calls at 4A 106 being the third).

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Probably on 2/19/2023, 11:19 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

The ref that made these two calls is almost always rated in the top 5 or 10. I bet he is again this year.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Because on 2/20/2023, 12:25 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

He’s in the top because they rate themselves. I promise he wouldn’t be doing finals matches if coaches rated.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Clarification on 2/20/2023, 11:23 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

First and foremost, the correct wrestler won the match. Everything else is opinion or speculation.

That said, it was a very difficult situation, and they did try to get it right. No ref wants to misinterpret a rule. Why it's easy to sit in the bleachers and judge this is not an easy job especially in that type of match.

That official seems to have made a mistake, along with the head official during the discussion. They are human like you, remember? NCAA Championship officials get it wrong occasionally too. NFL officials get it wrong a lot it seems.

Officials in WA are down almost 40%. Please feel free to get certified and help. Let's put those judging here in that spot and see how they keep it together. That Official is a top 5 official every year and he travels all year round working high level events....TO GET BETTER.

As we lose more officials it will dawn on you that without officials, there's no matches. Remember that before you take him to the stake. Not one ref I know tries to screw a kid or is bias. My two cents. The correct wrestler won the match.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Problem on 2/20/2023, 1:18 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

He can travel around all he wants. He treats people like crap, makes poor calls and inserts himself into matches constantly. Maybe in his travels he could figure it out.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Another ref on 2/20/2023, 2:33 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

That call after the match is not a "mistake." That call is what you call being a dirt bag. How many kids run and hug their coach before they shake hands? A LOT!!! He also called a stalling in between rounds and gave a point for that. He also made a "mistake" in the 126 4A quarters, and was very cocky about it after. He didn't come around to check the leg position for the takedown he gave. There is a difference between getting better as a ref and being arrogant and cocky and making the match about yourself.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Compassion? on 2/20/2023, 5:15 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

I believe you are asking for grace and compassion of which I’m 110% on board. We DO all make mistakes and are usually appreciative when offered grace when we screw up.

The main issue with this ref is that he seemingly lacks compassion (close relative of grace). A ref MUST be able to consistently ask himself or herself in all situations how they’d personally feel if their season ended due to a wrong call or if their ref refused to keep an open mind about possibly being incorrect when something they have worked their butts off for was on the line. I feel we too often forget the main purpose of what we are supposed to be doing as parents, teachers, coaches, refs, role models, etc…. We need to have our youth’s best interests at the forefront always and let our own pride take a back seat as difficult as that is sometimes. THAT’s what we want to model for our kids and what we want our kids to take from their HS experiences. What message do we think the kids get when they are powerless and the people who they are supposed to trust to have their best interest in mind treat them unjustly or lack compassion?

Look how fast this ref disregarded the coach in the 126 match when he asked for clarification (assuming he did). Also note the wrestler—he didn’t throw a tantrum, engage in the discussion, swear at the ref, etc. as we’ve all seen from time to time from others in that moment. He completely trusted the process as he should have.

The video clearly shows the coach wasn’t disrespectful and it doesn’t appear as if he said anything to warrant the quick misconduct he was handed— essentially eliminating any hope for a meaningful protest thereafter.

Perhaps this ref ought to be suspended with the hopes he can regroup with a different mindset when he comes back? Perhaps we can all learn something from this—myself included.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Please and Thanks on 2/20/2023, 6:40 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Who is the ref?

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Dave G on 2/20/2023, 9:24 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Why would your need his name? It is fine to discuss issues and calls at the state meet here but we don't need names. It serves no purpose but discussion of issues is always good. Leave it at that please.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by ref on 2/21/2023, 11:08 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "
Edited by board administrator 2/21/2023, 8:28 pm

**************** was the official

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by For Real on 2/21/2023, 11:15 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

You're an idiot!

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Well on 2/21/2023, 11:54 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

The kids the screw up get called out by name on here ALL the time! Now we are upset because someone named the ref?

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by For Real on 2/21/2023, 4:43 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

The fact of the matter is the Owner of this board practically said he didn’t need to be named. Yet some Jack wagon went ahead and did it anyway just despite his words.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Dave G on 2/21/2023, 8:26 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

What do kids really get called out on here for? Maybe unsportsmanlike behavior? It is not usually for doing the best they can or volunteering their time. Even when bad behavior is true I usually delete the name and/or thread.

I honestly want to know what kids are called out for here that does not get deleted. Can you give me true examples of kids getting called out on here so we can discuss what is really happening or are you just blowing smoke? Please respond in a logical fashion with honest examples of kids getting called out on here so we can have a civil discussion that will lead to some clarity and maybe changes in board moderation. I will be looking for a good discussion with you if you have the ethics and character to hang in there.

Calling out a ref by name that was only doing his best, just because you are mad at him, doesn't belong on here anymore than making a false allegation of bad behavior by a kid, because YOU are made at them. This country has way too many crazy people that think that lying is okay. I am not one of them. I await your response so we can discuss this.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Example on 2/21/2023, 9:51 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Im not the original poster, but the obvious example is Judah Bishop. He’s been called out on here multiple times over the last several years. I’m not saying if that’s appropriate or not, but it’s an obvious example.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Coach on 2/22/2023, 2:03 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Dave,

You say doing your best. This post is about a ref that continually treats people poorly and makes poor calls. His best or not, it is not best for kids or the sport to allow a person to treat people the way he does, meanwhile he’s busy making multiple poor calls in the state semi finals or state finals. If someone tried to have this conversation in person with him, he would just ding them with a misconduct. They guy is wrong often but will penalize anyone who questions him in anyway. Two major bad calls at the state tournament is worth talking about.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Dave G on 2/22/2023, 8:12 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

I agree that issue is worth talking about and has been talked about by a lot by people off this board, myself included. At our last official's meeting we discussed that situation and a few others that I saw on the message board and also some that were emailed to me.

The way you keep them as "issue discussions" is to keep the names out of it. Then we can discuss what happened, what should have happened and what do we do in the future to improve. That is what rational people do.

It is the same way with wrestlers. If they did something wrong then post what was done but keep the name and other identifiers out of it so discussion may continue. The problem is there are so many chronically angry people in the USA today that just want to attack and blame INDIVIDUALS instead of tackling the bigger issues.

BTW, as Dave G I have been attacked and discussed on several occasions on the board over the past 25 years with lengthy threads. I always left them up for people to discuss the situation as they saw it and then after they cooled down I would put up a detailed description of my side of the story. We should always be willing to be civil and look at the facts at hand. Someone's perspective on an issue could be based on not having all the true information. We see that more and more every day in the current political scene where people aren't working to fix something. They are working to always blame someone else for their own situations. You see blatant liars now days all through out politics and life in general. Makes me sick that many people tolerate liars like is done now days.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Another Ref on 2/22/2023, 8:23 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Dave, thank you for your hard work and comments on this situation. I agree with everything you say here.

I will remind everyone on this thread that we have fewer and fewer refs available every year. If you have issues with the ones we have, the best way to get rid of them, is to find someone to replace them with. Please step up, talk with your local association and support the sport that you love.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Seen2Much on 2/22/2023, 6:50 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Referees are not Volunteers, as they are paid for their time. They may volunteer to be a referee but are compensated for their time. Just because one "does our best" does not make us qualified for our job. Hopefully, this Referee will be properly evaluated for the job he was paid to do and a plan to correct his errors and behavior will be put in place to improve "his best" and avoid this kind of atrocities in the future.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Dave G on 2/22/2023, 8:36 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

I contribute financially to various non-profit groups every year as part of my philanthropic efforts to help make the world a better place. I consider consider officiating and the web site as part of my charity work as well but it gives me a more hands on approach to helping provide an opportunity for kids to have better direction in life through wrestling. For older refs with a successful work career the pay you mention is a fraction of what they can make at work. If they literally take a pay cut to go ref a dual then I call that volunteering or charity work.

If they are retired from their real career, and have to give up other activities with friends on a given day to go ref a middle school match, then I call that charity work. The reason they are increasing ref pay is to try and attract younger people where the pay means more to them. A high school kid can make some decent money (for them) by reffing 2-3 middle school matches a week right after they get out of school. We are always trying to attract them with money because that are not at a point in life yet where money means less than time. That doesn't work as well with the older refs who are in a different economic situation. Those I consider doing charity work for the sport. Same with coaches that do it not for the money but instead do it to help shape the lives of young men and women.

My question for "Seen2Much" is are you willing to put on the stripes for the pay that refs actually receive or are you "too busy". I am not discounting you points but when you paint every official as some employee that works for you is insulting. Same for coaches. There is no long line of applicants for the upcoming brain drain coming in both groups.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Kaze05 on 2/22/2023, 8:48 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Well said! Referees are almost never there for the money! Hell, I’ll bet the average Joe could make more money collecting and recycling cans than reffing… unless the pay has changed a lot from when I was wrestling.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Kaze05 on 2/22/2023, 8:37 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

This is not really accurate when you take into account that most of these guys have careers that pay far more. Guys like Dave are out there to give back because they love the sport… he could make 10 times that rate(or more) per hour going to his practice instead of supporting these kids.

Thank you Kaze05 - We have missed you here...

Posted by Dave G on 2/22/2023, 8:45 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Thanks. You get it. We have missed you here...

Re: Thank you Kaze05 - We have missed you here...

Posted by Kaze05 on 2/22/2023, 8:52 am, in reply to "Thank you Kaze05 - We have missed you here..."

Thanks Dave! I still lurk from time to time and have a son that just started wrestling and really enjoys it!

Re: Thank you Kaze05 - We have missed you here...

Posted by Brass Balls on 2/22/2023, 9:08 am, in reply to "Thank you Kaze05 - We have missed you here..."

I am on both ends of this discussion.

Pro athlete: Every call should be made correctly. Some of these athletes have given most of their lives at a chance to compete at the HS state tournament. There should be little room for error on the best refs in the state. That match was atrocious, that official asserted himself in the match and made it about him. Period. We have that in the finals every year. These guys are graded on how technical they are. I see it every year at the state tournament. Someone will lose on a caution, a technical violation, something dumb. The official could just say, "step on the line" but instead they want to be a participant in the action. I personally think it is petty and stupid.

Pro official: there are honestly not enough of them. We look at and see they are not that good. Especially the new ones coming up. You need more officials to be able to weed out the bad ones. It just doesn't exist. There are far to few officials and at the end of the day, every one of them that is available, is welcome.

Anti System: I would be curious to see what the grading criteria is for officials to be in the state finals. Is there an incentive for giving stalls, cautions, or Technical violations? What does that grading sheet look like?

Ref evaluations at state

Posted by Wrestler on 2/22/2023, 9:13 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

I’m not going to comment on whether this guys is a “good ref” or a bad ref. That is a subjective argument.

However, if it is in fact true (I did not see the match and am relying on info from this board) that this official blew a call in the 126 match with Lambro/Chichenhoff….how did he make the finals rotation? I know they can’t evaluate every match every official works, but it sure sounds like this same official made a major error in misapplication of a rule earlier in the tournament.

It’s ONE THING if an official makes a judgement call that is questionable and people disagree with. But a blatant misapplication of a rule (that decides a match, no less) is something that should probably see you miss the finals that year. Doesnt mean he’s a bad ref, but we all have bad days.

Overall, I thought the finals officiating was VERY GOOD. However, that sort of mistake (by both the official and THEN the “games committee”) just simply CANNOT HAPPEN in the finals.

Maybe with some of our older officials who know the rules but are a little too old to work matches, they can sit as matside observers and be in a position to help clarify the actual rules.

For as bad as the call ended up being, you have to give the ref credit for calling a “games committee” on himself to make sure they got the call right. Pretty embarassing for the WOA as a whole that they STILL screwed it up.

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by Dave G on 2/22/2023, 9:44 am, in reply to "Ref evaluations at state"

Good comments. This just shows we can have a civil discussion on the board and present ideas without pointing fingers at named people. I reviewed lots of video on Sunday that people presented to me for my opinion or just in case I was curious. I will agree that mistakes were made or judgement was suspect in some cases (JMHO). The best thing we can do is get more officials in the ranks and train them up and let the cream rise to the top. As a coach, you should memorize the rule book so when a misapplication arises you can point directly to it in the rule book if the official missed it. That is how you protect your wrestler from the corner although video replay would also be helpful but cumbersome.

If this ever happened again, and the coach presented Rule 5.17.2 from the rule book to the committee do you think the outcome would be different? I think so as the more eyes and information we have on an issue the more likely we are to have the right outcome. The officials involved in the committee are top of the line and extremely experienced and yet an error was made. Again, the more coaches and refs know the book, the less likely it is that unusual situations like this can occur. The responsibility to help get it right is on all of us!

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by For Real on 2/22/2023, 10:27 am, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

We get it everyone, the Ref made a mistake, mistakes happen. Whether it's in the Finals or not, things happen and Refs have bad days. The Ref and the Committee got it wrong, so it solely cannot be all of the Ref at this point. BUT... the correct wrestler won the match. I was there, watching and re-watched the match multiple times. I was also there for the 126 botch call in the Chichenoff/Curry match. The Ref will learn and be better from it. END OF STORY!

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by Not end of story on 2/22/2023, 11:11 am, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

Here is what happened.
The Ike coach asked for a clarification. The ref gave him two misconduct calls and was going to throw him out of the tournament if he continued to protest. Other coaches and the assistants urged him to protest and he did saying it was a misapplication of the rule and not judgement. The Tahoma assistant yelled at the ref saying the wrestler left the mat and the ref then didn't allow the protest.
Maybe someone else can sort this out, but it was wrong. The ref used his power to bully the Ike coach.

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by Wrestler on 2/22/2023, 11:41 am, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

Regardless of what happened at the table, once the “protesting” wrestler leaves the wrestling area (typically interpreted as they step off the mat), by rule no protest of any kind can be accepted and the match result is final.

This includes officials calls, misapplications of rules, bad time, or even scoring errors at the table.

Actually, let's be more accurate

Posted by By the Book on 2/22/2023, 11:58 am, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

If a Coach Conference is called for which involves a ruling that could necessitate additional wrestling, then the wrestler is required to remain in the MAT AREA, not necessarily on the mat. The mat area consists of the wrestling area (the 28 foot circle) plus an area within 10 feet of that circle. So, the wrestler could go sit in the corner on the chairs, or pace back and forth alongside the mat, or stay near the scorer's table, etc.
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The reason for this restriction is that if additional wrestling is needed (e.g., a disputed takedown call where the takedown awarded broke a tie at the end of the 3rd period, and would mean OT if it gets overturned), then we don't want to have to conduct some lengthy search for the kid who needs to be ready to wrestle if the dispute turns out in their favor.
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If no additional wrestling is necessary, then only the coach needs to remain in the MAT AREA,not on the mat. The reason behind this is because we don't need the athletes to hang around, since no more wrestling will be required. Instead, the coach can handle what has now become an administrative situation - getting something corrected which indeed has a bearing on who won the match.

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by For Real on 2/22/2023, 11:52 am, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

I was also there, watching intently on this match. I believe the Ike Coach was arguing that Curry should not have received a takedown which he is correct. The Official award 2, and the Coach disagreed and argued. He definitely could have gone about it a different way. I've attached a picture (see picture 1) of exactly when the Ref awarded 2 for the takedown. Curry's leg was not between Chichenoff's, where it needs to be in order for that to be 2. Chichenoff has the leg across his thigh controlling it. That is what Ike's coach was arguing. The Ref messed up the takedown call, but had Ike's wrestler not left the mat, I'm sure the Ref would have let the protest happen (see picture 2.) Don't throw all of this at the Ref, he's not out there to intentionally screw anyone or abuse power. If you know this Ref, he's a good dude who does it for the kids. He definitely had a bad day to say the least.

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by Even if on 2/22/2023, 12:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

Even if the ref had allowed a protest, I guarantee they would have lost because the ref(even though everyone says he is great and he travels) never came around to the other side to make sure the leg was in the proper position. He made the call on one side and assumed.

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by C'Mon man on 2/22/2023, 12:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

You can't guarantee anything!

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by Coach on 2/22/2023, 11:55 am, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

That call he got right Eisenhower Coach. Should have kept your kid on the mat. Might have won that one. Can’t protest after you leave the mat and have other coaches tell you the rules.

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by See BTB explanation on 2/22/2023, 12:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

He didn't need to be on the mat. The right call would have changed the outcome without any more wrestling so the wrestler is allowed to leave the mat. Either way, he was didn't leave the mat per BTB's definition. The wrong kid won that match...period.

On / off mat ruling.

Posted by Still unsure? on 2/24/2023, 4:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

I need black and white answers…. I’m dense.

In the 126 lb match, the disputed takedown was DURING the match, but it was disputed AFTER the match because everything too place in the last :20 of the match. Can the Ike kid walk off the mat or not for the call to be contested?

Thanks. Yes, I realize there have been numerous posts on this so thank you for your patience.

Re: On / off mat ruling.

Posted by No problem on 2/24/2023, 5:18 pm, in reply to "On / off mat ruling. "

If there is no wrestling that needs to take place, he can leave the mat. The call in question would have decided the match. It should have been 2 TD for Ike, but instead it was 2TD for Tahoma and 2 reversal for Ike. In a one point match, the call decided that match.
If there needed to be more wrestling that needed to occur, the Ike kid needed to be within 10 feet of the match. Either way, he was fine because he never left the mat area. Navejas got away with one. Whether he knew or didn't know, it was not his place. The Ike kid should have had his day in court with the games committee.

Re: On / off mat ruling.

Posted by Still unsure? on 2/24/2023, 5:38 pm, in reply to "Re: On / off mat ruling. "

Thank you.

Re: On / off mat ruling.

Posted by Was there on 2/24/2023, 11:17 pm, in reply to "Re: On / off mat ruling. "

Ike was not even going to protest because their coach didn’t know that was even a thing. They left to go to the stands and the Davis coaches told him to try and protest. Curry knew he got two and gave up the reversal on purpose to win the match. The Ike coach was clueless and had three other coaches babysit him back over to the table. You can’t protest 5 mins after the match when you learn the rules yourself.

Re: Ref evaluations at state

Posted by The Committee on 2/22/2023, 11:51 am, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

We have to do better on the “committee” as well. It was the ref, the head official who I love, (Neither had a rule book), the 4A Tournament Director (don’t think he knows the rules) and the head of WIAA Wrestling (I know he doesn’t know the rules)

Let’s get some people who know the rules at state on the committee and let’s get them a rule book.

Ref interpretation in a different situation

Posted by Wrestler on 2/22/2023, 11:33 am, in reply to "Re: Ref evaluations at state"

Experienced refs (BTB) or others:

Would this rule be interpreted differently if a disputed call at the end of regulation had the possibility of sending a match to overtime?

Say it was 2-0, and a disputed takedown could send it to overtime. Does that change things? My interpretation of the SPIRIT of the rule would say no. But a clarification would be great since we’re on the subject.

End of match clarification and disputes

Posted by By the Book on 2/22/2023, 11:46 am, in reply to "Ref interpretation in a different situation"

The key thing in a scenario similar to what you post is that what is being decided happened DURING the match. So, if the coach wishes to have a conference about the ruling of a takedown at the end of the 3rd period, and that ruling would warrant additional wrestling, then by all means it is fair game for a conference and a potential change in ruling.
.
What we don't consider is trying to take an event which happens AFTER the match concluded, and then inserting it into the match results by trying to put a scoresheet notation inside of the match which could alter the match score (e.g., adding a penalty point) or alter the match result (e.g., declaring a 3rd injury time out after the final whistle which would then result in a loss by Disqualification).

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by OldWrestler on 2/22/2023, 9:37 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Seen2Much. If you are Officiating any High School Sport for the money, you are a fool, bottom line you have to love the sport, money does not enter into the equation, how about you step up and see how big your check is at the end of the year, guaranteed you'd change your tune!

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Older ref on 2/22/2023, 2:01 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Same with coaches...they put in hours and hours of coaching, traveling, studying, counseling, baby sitting, etc. An NFL coach or big time college coach makes millions and should be in the .0001% which means there are only a handful of them in the country. You can crucify them over an action and their pay allows you to do that. Local HS coaches and refs...not the same situation and have earned more compassion from the criticizers.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by Crazy on 2/21/2023, 11:12 pm, in reply to "160 4A Finals "

This match was crazy and the WIAA ref mess it up.

learn from it

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by NCAA Quarter Finals on 3/17/2023, 9:18 am, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Kids win, high five coaches then go to the middle for the hand shake. Surprise… no match or team point. Just good reffing and letting kids celebrate appropriately.

Re: 160 4A Finals

Posted by I was there on 3/20/2023, 1:08 pm, in reply to "Re: 160 4A Finals "

Many hugs, zero were penalized.

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