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District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Curious on 1/12/2023, 1:44 pm

Does anyone “official” audit the strength of a district or region to be sure that a team of teams are fairly represented at state? For example, looking at the rankings, many of the top 10 kids in 4A come out of the region that Sunnyside, Hanford, ML, and Chiawana are in. If their region is notably tougher than other regions, then some of the better wrestlers in the state may not get out of their region (I’m saying the obvious here; I know).

Conversely, if a region is weak as a whole, many kids who likely shouldn’t be at state get there and get pinned twice and go home. I know most know this has been an on-going complaint with little solutions offered.

The biggest issue I see, however, is how it affects the state contending teams. If one region has only one or two powerhouses in it, it will obviously send more kids to state than another powerhouse that has ridiculous competition in its region—They will also have higher seeds on average. That’s not a reflection of who are truly the best teams in the state. One team walks in more kids to score more team points than another who has a brutal region, and also has easier first-round matchups to win more matches dominantly. That’s not even close to apples to apples unless I’m missing something?

I’d like to extend that to individual districts. If one district has a couple horrible teams in it (or even just one), then the other teams will have an advantage at regions. Does anyone outside that district ever pay attention to the worst teams in the state and why they are bad year in and out to perhaps do something about it? The kids in that school district are the ones getting cheated the most.

A few years back, we had to skip regionals and make state a 32 man bracket. All teams had a better opportunity to fairly compete for the state title. Why don’t we have 2 regions instead of 4 and keep a 16 man bracket at state? Send the top 8 out of each region? seems like that would allow all the best kids in the state to compete at state vs having the powerhouse teams clog up 2 of the 4 spots in many of their regions—leaving perhaps a couple top ten kids out of state. All four kids placed in the top 6 out of one region one year so we are excluding some of the state’s best kids every year because their one region is so gnarly.

I can’t find a reason why 2 regions isn’t the best scenario for the sport as a whole, but mostly for all the kids getting an equal opportunity to get to and maybe place at state. Regionals would be just as entertaining as state too.

What am I missing?

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Steve Davis on 1/12/2023, 2:01 pm, in reply to "District / Regional Disparities"

The WIAA doesn't look at that stuff for most sports, including wrestling. They only look at number of teams (for allocations) and trying to keep teams in their "region" the best they can with equal numbers. When there is a big disparity in number of teams, some leagues will have to cross the mountains for regionals but not often.
4a boys - GSL goes with KingCo so each region has around 13 teams so they are get 4 berths to state. If GSL stayed in eastern washington with Big 9 and MCC they could get 5 berths and KingCo only 3 so WIAA evened it out.
Girls 3a/4a - If WIAA gave region 4 a league from region 1, then all regions would get 5 berths to state. As it stands region gets 6 region 2 & 3 get 5 and region 4 gets 4.
I've found that most of the time, WIAA won't send a westside league across the mountains unless it's pretty much their only choice.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Curious on 1/12/2023, 2:15 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

Thank you Steve.

I feel that is all really unfortunate as the kids aren’t considered first and foremost as they should be in all situations regardless if sports, academic, etc.

Thanks for pointing out the 3 spots vs 5. ; ). That’s completely upside down and exasperates the problem (as I see it anyway) with the current system. Any sport that has individual accomplishments mixed in with team vs strictly team really should be treated differently—track, tennis, etc..

The region with chiawana and Sunnyside only sending 3?? It’s very possible 2 Sunnyside or 2 chiawana fill 2 of the 3 in several weight classes (Toppenish—guaranteed 2 of 3 in majority of weight classes). Absolutely wrong. There ought to be a minimum of 4; maybe we reintroduce pigtails to wrestle a 4 vs a 5.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Black Ops on 1/12/2023, 6:31 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

The biggest issue Is the kids that have the time commitment and sacrifice part done. They have made their mark and sacrificed, but the gatekeepers are putting a monkey wrench into the situation. They are not to be taken lightly.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Steve Davis on 1/12/2023, 8:06 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

I may have been confusing in that post. Region 4 in 4a gets 4 berths to state / all 4 regions get 4 in 4a. I was saying if GSL stayed region 4 May have gotten 5 and KingCo’s region might’ve only gotten 3. But they sent GSL to even it all with all getting 4

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Agree on 1/12/2023, 9:48 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

Toppenish is the wrong class period, it’s pathetic!!

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Old Dad on 1/13/2023, 6:03 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

It is how it has always been for some time, in 2018 my son had the top five of the top ten guys in the state in his bracket (MCC,GSHL, and GSL) and missed state along with the number two kid, What is the term, Iron Sharpens Iron and whoever does make it through has a good shot at being the state champ

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Agree on 1/13/2023, 10:10 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

Yet Region 4 girls will be the toughest, and the toughest to get out. This conversation occurs every year and the wrestling in Region 4 continues to get stronger and bigger, but there are no adjustments to the competitive factor.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Sealth Coach D on 1/13/2023, 11:03 am, in reply to "District / Regional Disparities"

We talk about this every year and the main problem is Metro. Because while almost all Metro schools opt up to 3A and are way behind in being competitive in wrestling, it's not true for any other sport. If the Metro schools were to actually compete by population, O'Dea, Eastside Catholic, and Rainier Beach, for example, would move to 1A and 2A. No ADs in Washington want this, because they don't want to "fix" wrestling in exchange for losing the opportunity to go to the playoffs in any other sport. And rightfully, the Metro coaches in other sports could argue that most Washington HS sports playoffs shouldn't even have teams outside of the Seattle area in them if the model is to go by some sort of power rankings.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Fan5 on 1/13/2023, 11:24 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

Please combine 1a and B schools into one division and allow a 16 man bracket again.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Steve Davis on 1/13/2023, 11:34 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

The WIAA uses RPI and seeds football and basketball. Leagues like Metro have the advantage in Basketball and rightfully so, they get that opportunity in that sport.
State could do that for other sports, including wrestling, it would even things out. Like Football and Basketball, there are strong leagues year in and year out but RPI and seeding helps in years when other leagues have strong teams.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Simple on 1/13/2023, 11:55 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

The reason some regions are tougher than others is because the east side of the state is tougher than the west. Region 4 will always be the toughest region in the state. 4a region 4 has the #1, #2, #8, #15, #17#, #18, and #19 ranked teams. 7 ranked teams in the top 20,with 3 being in the top 10.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Steve Davis on 1/13/2023, 12:38 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

I understand your argument. I was born and raised in eastern washington. I'm just telling you what the WIAA does for wrestling, and it's not the same that they do for other sports.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Black Ops on 1/13/2023, 12:50 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

The west side gatekeepers haven't been producing for awhile as a whole compared to others. Yes some schools but not consistency and long term . they may need to get out of the tennis shoe tournaments and get into a rocky harbor to raise their level. Real talk, some of the gatekeepers over is Wesco and Kingco holding their soldiers back.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by u aren't looking close enough on 1/20/2023, 8:59 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

Simple,

You need to look at the actual make up of the other regions as well. 4A western region has 8 ranked teams (4,5,6,10,11,13,14,&18) 3 in the top 10 (all from the same league). Look at the region next to the individual names in ea. weight class's rankings. Ask Big 9 what it was like being paired with the SPSL in the cycle a few years ago...see the results. Good teams and good wrestlers are really just that. It has nothing to do with location of their home. Again, take a look at the rankings. Some regions are tougher than others for sure, but it's not a strictly E-side v W-side thing.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by EB-WAN on 1/20/2023, 9:58 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

It was supposed to be a rotation among the various districts within each classification to ensure fair regional competition. For the past decade, as an example, 4A regional pairings have pit the Big 9 or the GSL against the MCC. The Metro league has paired for 2 years with the Big 9. I assume the GSL is in the 2nd year of its pairing with the Metro league. If true equal opportunity is a reality, then the MCC will pair with Metro league next for 2 years, then a new rotation of District pairings will take place. Travel cannot be used as the criteria for keeping the status quo since the distance between the Big 9 or MCC and the GSL is equal or greater than most current
westside pairings.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Not Fact Checked on 1/20/2023, 10:15 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

That is not true; 4A Regional Pairings just a few years ago was Big 9 with SPSL. The results favored the SPSL. (There is no 4A metro league. So that is not possible.)

Quick Count of Current Ranked Wrestlers by Region (4A):

Region 1 (W/W) 28 (NPSL/WESCO)
Region 2 (E/W) 16 (GSL/KINGCO)
Region 3 (W/W) 47 (GSHL/SPSL)
Region 4 (E/E) 49 (Big 9/MCC)

The regions try to balance the number of teams in a region. I do find it strange that this 2 year cycle of leagues in each region was completely unchanged from the previous one.

I will say again, it doesn't matter what side of the mountains a wrestler is on, tough is tough. I don't see one side getting favored over the other.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Big9 on 1/20/2023, 10:45 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

It's not based on equity of wrestlers rankings or how tough a team or league is, it's based on equity of number of schools to make each region even so each gets 4 allocations to state.
The big nine was paired with KingCo just before the pandemic.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Exactly on 1/20/2023, 11:10 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

Agreed.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Dave G on 1/20/2023, 7:31 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

Pretty sure that Metro has 16 teams and are a region on to themselves. That is by memory and could have changed. I seem to remember reffing their regional a few years ago and they were all Metro. I think they always qualify for 4 state spots in 3A.

Sealth Coach D would know for sure.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Sealth Coach D on 1/22/2023, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

Thanks, Dave!

This is the second straight year Metro has been paired with GSHL 3A for our regional tournament. Seattle Prep and Holy Names don't have wrestling, so Metro is a 15-team 3A conference. It means we can only be paired with a tiny subregion. We've alternated between being paired and being our own region since I've been here, with most years being paired with another subregion.

The allocations debate usually involves the smaller subregion feeling like most or all of their kids should get a shot at state over Metro kids. The problem is, whether that's true or not, allocation is a question of numbers, not relative strength. And trying to sneak in a relative strength argument in wrestling playoffs causes Metro ADs to rightfully argue for the same in other sports. That's when it gets shut down, because non-Metro ADs have no desire to shift state playoff chances in 5-6 of their other sports, simply because a conference with a two-year "marriage" to Metro wrestling wants *their third kid in a weight class to get a shot at state. The Metro girls' tennis coach feels the same way about her girl who plays third singles, same as the non-Metro track coach who wants his third long jumper to get a shot at state, too.

*not being literal, these are just the types of scenarios that start to happen when you introduce relative strength arguments

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Big9 on 1/22/2023, 1:07 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

The other argument that other people mention is the equality of opportunity vs equality of outcomes. They use it to say that the tougher regions should get an opportunity to compete at state, but don't realize that they do have the opportunity to compete at state. Just because your region is tougher doesn't eliminate your opportunity to compete. You just have to beat tougher kids. In the end, you can't argue that you didn't get the opportunity to compete just because you lost to a tougher kids on the way. Same argument regarding Toppenish being 1A. Everyone still has the same opportunity to compete. Work harder and get better and earn it. It will never be 100% equitable, but as long as you have an opportunity to compete, you have a shot.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by EB-WAN on 1/20/2023, 7:41 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

46 of the 2022 4A State Placers and 24 of the top 4 came from Eastern Washington. Rankings often reflect inflated records that don't correspond to state tournament success.

Really?

Posted by Dave G on 1/21/2023, 9:28 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

"Rankings often reflect inflated records that don't correspond to state tournament success."

Why would you comment on something you obviously know so little about? Rankings don't go by records. They go by tournament success and mostly by head to head competition when that is available. If you want to be ranked you need to get to the tough tournaments and beat a ranked wrestler head to head. That is the best way to get ranked. I will agree the inflated records don't correspond to state tournament success but again, we don't use those so what is your point?

Rankings never guarantee a state placing. They also never prevented anyone from a state placing. Each year the rankings prior to post-season are pretty dialed in. There will always be surprises, upsets and Cinderella stories at state and that makes it interesting. When it comes to rankings, the goal of every wrestler in the state should be to have a performance that exceeds their ranking.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Sealth Coach D on 1/13/2023, 12:57 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

If it were just those two sports, I still don't think most ADs would be onboard for pushing the wrestling domino. But it's most of the other sports, as well. Metro schools would opt to their population level, instead of choosing to all be 3A. An RPI-type system in every sport would skew almost all of them except wrestling toward Seattle. The population disparity makes the talent disparity pretty huge and nearly permanent, with some rare exceptions. No 1A or 2A track coach in Washington wants Metro schools in their state playoff. Same with tennis and golf coaches who'd have to compete against all the absurdly-funded private school programs in the Seattle area. It's much bigger than just basketball and football, and all of those sports would have an argument if wrestling goes to an RPI.

Not gonna get myself in trouble, but I saw it all start to happen a few years ago and it was shut down quickly. You might be surprised by how many schools with quality wrestling programs would not support making any more RPIs or strength ratings...

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Dave G on 1/13/2023, 1:43 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

I like when you post on here. You have a wealth of knowledge of how things work outside the sport of wrestling and especially within the Seattle metropolitan area.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Staff on 1/19/2023, 3:07 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

agree with how RPI helps seed for post season, yet the teams still have to make it through districts to qualify for state tournaments. METRO league as a very interesting dynamic with the private schools which creates some balance differences when you get away from the so called revenue sports of football and basketball. Of heard there might be some differences at next cycle of classification and if the new rule proposed for the balancing out the classification passes could create some differences as well (going back to same number of schools 3A and 4A instead of the imbalance now with more schools in 3A).

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by Agree on 1/21/2023, 9:40 pm, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

I agree

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by No on 1/23/2023, 8:34 am, in reply to "District / Regional Disparities"

Your solution would be changing how districts and regional work every year because it tends to fluctuate. There a few her schools that produce great talent. But, even then, other teams have studs come up each year and some regions are tougher at certain weight classes and weaker at other weight classes. If you want to make it to state, win at districts/subregionals, then win at regionals. The road is the same for all athletes. Its the most fair way.

Re: District / Regional Disparities

Posted by 2 Regions not 4 on 1/23/2023, 9:42 am, in reply to "Re: District / Regional Disparities"

I’m admittedly slow so beat me over the head if you must…. I lack understanding why two regions instead of four isn’t contemplated? 4 out of each district to regionals, but then 8 advancing to state. The best teams and wrestlers would all be represented at state.

Also, 3 out of any district vs 4 should never be a consideration. Districts with the elite wrestling programs in it take away opportunities for other, potential top 8 kids.

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