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A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Coach on 1/9/2023, 12:52 pm

Hey, I think it is time for wrestling to develop and evolve how we do competitions.

I just went to a tournament and we brought about 20 kids. We had one champ, two runner ups, and a kid who placed third. The tournament was a fun place for those 4 to learn and compete. The issue is my other 16 kids. Many of them went 0-2 and learned very little in the 11 hours from weigh-ins to leaving. I look around, and there are a lot of teams like mine where there are plenty of kids on the team who don’t need official competitions but rather need time and coaching to develop their skills. I would love to see tournaments offer a varsity bracket for the kids that are ready for the competition and a workshop/practice/scrimmage mat or two for kids to learn from other coaches, get a feel for what it's like to wrestle different bodies, and make friends.

I know there are plenty of logistical difficulties, but it is time for us to evolve. I am tired of going to tournaments so my competitive kids can get real competition while my non-competitive kids learn very little, and I don’t like the idea of just bringing 4-6 kids. I also don’t have the staffing/resoiurces to send my JV kids to a JV tournament every time my varsity goes, so they come with us, and we try and get them matches. Even when there are JV tournaments - a lot of my JV kids don’t actually need more competition, they just need to practice and learn more. This would also help tournaments run faster because there would be smaller brackets if we remove the kids who are not ready for whatever level of competition is at that tournament.

For any kid that goes 0-2 we could have them do workshops after they lose their second match versus just saying “ok, you are done wrestling today at 11:30, now go support your team for the next 5 hours.”

How we do tournaments is my first issue.

My second issue is the way we do weigh-ins are outdated. If we want to get kids to stop cutting so much weight, then the answer is so simple. Have a scale by every mat. Kids step on the scale before they wrestle. If they make weight, they wrestle if they don’t make weight, then they don’t wrestle. If we move to this style of weigh-ins, kids would not be able to game the system. Kids can’t maintain a weight cut throughout the day, and if they don’t get an hour to recover, then they can’t even maintain one for a dual meet. This rule change would force kids to wrestle their natural weight, and I think would be so much better for the sport. Weight classes are just to get kids in approximate size groupings anyway, so why not make it harder to game the system?

Added benefit of this style is we don’t have to have teams arrive by 7:00 or 7:30 to weigh in - teams can get there with enough time to warm up before the tournament starts. We can also get rid of the weight assessment at the beginning of the season because kids wouldn’t be cutting weight. We wouldn’t have to do weigh-ins next to each other anymore (which is already a ridiculous rule, so what - the kids can size each other up?). And please, please always weigh in from lightweight to heavy weight. It is so confusing for my kids when we draw a number out of a hat last minute and shuffle the kids around, so we start at 145 or something random. Even if we start the dual at 145, I hate reorganizing the weight line.

These are some of my musings - I just think it's time to change. It is such a big ask for the most dedicated wrestlers to give up Saturdays and wake up before dawn just so they can get a few matches. It is an even bigger ask for the fringe wrestlers who want to try and are just learning to do the same for only two matches that might be over pretty quickly. We need to think about all the kids not just our competitive ones in order to grow the sport.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Maybe try coaching swimming on 1/9/2023, 2:05 pm, in reply to "A Couple Needed Changes"

Give me a break. You think other coaches are going to want to give your kids a clinic?? Get real. This is on you to find the right competition for your kids. Not on everyone else. Let me guess, you and your whole team have preferred pronouns and blue hair.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Old Dad on 1/9/2023, 2:17 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

I think it is all about finding the right level of competition for your team, one year my son's team was a solid team in the MCC but went over to the Keegan Langhoff tourney somewhere on the wet side and they had all their starter in the finals, sometimes vs their JV practice partner. They were wrestling state placers but not at the level they were both used to, I am certain my son pinned the bracket in the first round and he nver went to state all four years

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Coach on 1/12/2023, 11:38 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

50% of wrestlers go 0-2 or 1-2 at every tournament. That means 50% of wrestlers sit in the bleachers all day and wrestle for at most 18 minutes. However, many of these kids get pinned and for a lot of wrestlers their mat time is less than 6 minutes. This is a waste of time for the kids, for the parents, and for the coaches. We want these first and second year wrestlers to improve, and there are so many better ways to do that then just trying to seek out the right competition. I just think many wrestlers would actually benefit from instruction with different people than trying to find JV tournaments that I don't have the staff to send them to.

Tournaments are the worst venue for new wrestlers and fans. "When am I up?" "When will my kid wrestle?" "What mat will I be on?" I literally can't answer those questions. It is all guess work. I am not just thinking about right level of competition - I am suggesting that we make tournaments useful for the 25% of kids who are just going to lose their first two matches.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Ehh on 1/15/2023, 7:18 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

It's not that big of a deal. You get what you earn. That's the life lesson you learn from going 0-2.

An actual response

Posted by Wrestler on 1/9/2023, 2:45 pm, in reply to "A Couple Needed Changes"

1. I’m assuming you have yourself and just 1 assistant coach. So here’s what you do. Take your best kids to a tournament that matches their skill level. Have your 1 assistant coach run practice for the 16 kids that are left behind. That shouldn’t be an issue. If you need an extra coach at the tournament to help you, get one of your parents of one of the “best” kids to sign up as a volunteer assistant. Usually just a background check, maybe a CPR class. Even if its just you at tourneys, ref can’t start a match without a coach in the corner…so you wont have kids without a coach. Even if they did, most your “best” kids have probably wrestled enough freestyle that they’d be fine without a coach in the early rounds.

2. Take your “not so great” kids to a JV tournament. Have those “better” wrestlers come in for a 60-90 minute practice…drill hard, work on a little technique, a few live goes and get outta there. They’ll get more done than in a regular practice and have time to catch up on schoolwork/relax/condition or whatever.

3. Email tournament directors and ask for (also, search out and attend) tourneys with second chance brackets, JV brackets, etc. Off the top of my head, I know Hanford Winter Cup had girls and boys JV in addition to varsity. Many others do as well.

4. Don’t go to regular tournaments. Hit JV mix-and-matches or dual tournaments.

5. Find another team/coach with the same issue and hold a joint practice with your and their “not as good guys”. Now, this still counts as an outing for your team (which I’m assuming should not be an issue) but new practice partners, extra coaches, etc is a great way to boost your new guys. If you want, you can pair guys up for matches at the end and have a little more control ad far as getting well matched partners. A rising tide lifts all boats.

As for mat side weigh ins… duals maybe, tournaments, no. You’d see a ton of FF for kids missing weight. When that happens, now you end up with 2 other kids who do not get to wrestle a match. You can’t just have kids move up a weight. Weight management is a part of the sport, and the weight assessment and decent plan rules make it much safer than it used to be.

Nothing wrong with side by side weigh ins…especially now that they’re wearing singlets. And weigh ins are not that hard. If kids want to wrestle, they’ll be quiet and listen for the official to call the weight classes out. Thats just a poor excuse and a lack of discipline.

Re: An actual response

Posted by Another View on 1/9/2023, 4:18 pm, in reply to "An actual response"

Your post made me think. It would be cool for a tourney to have a scramble on another mat with the kids that were bounced. An organized scramble with a ref or maybe one of the coaches to score. Nothing official, just to get kids a fresh opponent.

Having a scale at each mat before each match would cost chaos. Just teach your kids to have that goal weight. One of the great things about a morning weigh in is the celebrated breakfast or snack.

Re: An actual response

Posted by By Pham on 1/9/2023, 6:09 pm, in reply to "Re: An actual response"

The Davis Invite does this. We have a 16 man bracket and a JV mix and match in another gym. Any kids who get eliminated from the tournament can also join the mix and match. Kids who really want mat time get 4 matches in the mix and match so everyone gets good competition. If you want to come, email me at killerby108@yahoo.com

Re: An actual response

Posted by Parent on 1/9/2023, 8:01 pm, in reply to "Re: An actual response"

We went to the Fife HS tournament this year and they put together exhibition matches for the kids that got knocked out of the tournament and still wanted to wrestle. It was great! They just worked in the exhibition matches between the regular matches! The more mat time the better. Practice is great but wrestling a live match the kids learn a lot!

Re: An actual response

Posted by Coach on 1/12/2023, 11:43 am, in reply to "An actual response"

1. It is really hard to be a single coach at a tournament. One guy on mat 1 and one guy on mat 5 in a different room. It is an option, but it is a tough option.
2. Yes, that is a good option for a weekend or two.
3. SEcond chance brackets are good, but I just feel like it is not the best wrestling can come up with. I feel like we can go beyond just trying to get every kid as many matches as possible. I would love to see us try and form a community that develops all the beginning wrestlers.
4. I think dual meet tournaments are much better; however, they are not the norm and there are only a handful across the state.
5. Yes, I like joint practices, but they are hard to organize and hard to get another coach to buy in to it.

For matside weigh ins- there would only be FFs if kids are cutting weight and miss weight. If kids understand they need to be under a certain weight all day they would not cut weight. Weight management doesn't need to be part of the sport - and the weight assessment is gameable and kids are still cutting lots of weight.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Sealth Coach D on 1/11/2023, 1:11 pm, in reply to "A Couple Needed Changes"

Like at Fife, we also set up matches for kids who go 0-2 at our tournaments for that reason. If you don't have full varsity and JV lineups and at least two more coaches, it's almost impossible to send your team out as split squads. Metro got rid of middle school wrestling 40 years ago, so our schools always have lots of kids who are brand new to the sport in our lineups. It's great when they don't have to spend an entire day watching their better teammates from the stands.

As for matside weigh-ins, most coaches in our sport place a high value on weight-cutting. It took having girls compete in large numbers for most wrestling coaches to have a problem with adults lining up and weighing in dozens of naked children (I wrestled in MS and HS mostly in the 80s). It took until a couple years ago to get them to weigh kids in with singlets on instead of underwear. Add to that the fact they also don't care what a kid weighs when they step on the mat to compete and you make matside weigh-ins a non-starter. I've coached in multiples states and offered coaches the opportunity to do matside weigh-ins completely off the record and where only they could see the results (bring your own scale, sit it next to your bench, and check weights) and have never had anyone accept it. I wish that would change.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Coach on 1/12/2023, 11:30 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

To me, matside weigh-ins are an obvious choice. It completely erases weight cutting. Why do we need kids to cut weight? What is the value for a kid to cut weight? The answer people give me is: It is a necessary part of the sport. But why does it have to be? If we honor the true intent of weight classes - to get similar-sized kids to wrestle each other, then we can do that without weight cutting. I cut 20 pounds in HS and even more in college, and I dreaded wrestling seasons because I knew it meant I had to cut weight to be competitive. Wrestling should encourage healthy weights that kids can maintain, not these wild weight cuts.

It seems wild to me that we let 14-year-old kids cut weight with the knowledge that they need an hour or more to recover their energy.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Wrestler on 1/12/2023, 12:45 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

The idea that matside weigh ins will just magically eliminate weight management/cutting is just not based in reality.

Competitive wrestlers will ALWAYS want to put themselves in the best position possible to win. That includes both weight management (proper diet and aerobic exercise throughout the day to optimize nutrition and maintain high metabolism) AND weight cutting (reducing water intake and eliminating excess water from the body right before a weigh in).

The solutions to “weight cutting problems” are two-fold:

1. Proper training/information about #1 from coaches (weight management is NOT weight cutting, and is healthy) so wrestlers are maximizing their good weight and eliminating bad weight.

2. Coaches not letting kids get away with BAD weight cuts. The kids that eat like crap all week and don’t work out outside of practice. Kids trying to practice with 4 layers of clothes on to “cut weight” during practice. Kids that are 3-6+ pounds over weight at the end of practice the day before a match. Kids that hop off the scale and start shoveling garbage into their mouths 50 minutes before a match. Coaches need to put their foot down and not let kids get away with that crap. Don’t let them wrestle in that “lower” weight class unless they do it the right way.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Coach on 1/12/2023, 2:53 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

Matside weigh ins will absolutely prevent big weight cuts because...

In order to be competitive kids will need to feel good when they step on the mat, and they will not be able to feel good if they are cutting weight. Imagine cutting 15 pounds and then having to wrestle right after stepping off the scale. If someone wants to be competitive with matside weigh ins they would HAVE to avoid weight cuts.

Right now most successful wrestlers are losing a lot of weight before matches, and the system in place allows them to have an hour or two to recover so that when they step on the mat they are weighing 3-5 pounds more than the weight class should allow.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Cutter on 1/12/2023, 4:31 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

This would do nothing but cause the kids who already cut a lot, to stay cutting the entire day of a tourney. They have already made the choice to cut poorly, what makes you think they wouldn't continue doing so under your new rules? It would now just be done in an even more unhealthy way by forcing themselves to keep that weight off all day.

What this would do is cause chaos for all tournaments with the forfeits that would for sure happen in the middle of tourneys.

I too wrestled 30+ years ago, and the difference is night and day between what's allowed/done nowadays. Is it perfect? No, but it is far from unhealthy anymore.

Cutting a handful of pounds a day or 2 before competition is not a big deal. Yeah, there might be a small minority who push the limits and skirt the rules to cut much more than should be allowed, but those would be the same ones gaming your system.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Coach on 1/12/2023, 8:05 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

I can guarantee that anyone trying to maintain a weight cut throughout a day will quickly realize that it isn’t a viable option to be competitive. No one can step on the scale after a tough cut and wrestle well. The kids that try and game it will quickly learn that they need to wrestle closer to their natural weight. And if it causes chaos at a tournament then it means kids are trying to maintain a cut. Heck give them a pound allowance after their first match. I think there is a risk of issues, but this sounds so much better than what we currently do.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Wrestler on 1/13/2023, 7:33 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

That fact that you are speaking in absolutes…assuming what ALL kids will do…that alone should be enough to indicate you are wrong.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Coach on 1/13/2023, 9:13 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

"I think there is a risk of issues." I am not speaking in absolutes - but I think for the vast majority of kids, this will prevent tough weight cuts and I would be excited for Washington to try it out. Who can wrestle well stepping off the scale if you are cutting weight?

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by really on 1/13/2023, 10:12 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

Unless there are assessors out there doing improper pinches and fudging the numbers to give a kid a higher body fat percentage than they actually have, their descent plan is supposed to be set for them to stay in a healthy weight class.

So, I don't see how doing a mat side weigh in is going to promote a healthy weight for each wrestler. The descent plan is already designed to do that. If anything, I would see a mat side weigh is even more unhealthy. Now you are going to have kids that purposely cut to an extreme to make weight for a dual to wrestle a specific kid that night, then eat a bunch of food after there one and only match. The decent plan makes sure each kids maintains the proper weight loss per week that is safe.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Sealth Coach D on 1/13/2023, 10:46 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

I don't know why wrestling absolutely has to have some form of weight cutting in it with no other possible competitive alternative, but here we are. Take your same example here where coaches enforce high quality eating habits and practice routines. Now put a scale by the side of the mat and have them step on it before they wrestle. What would be lost from our sport?

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Let it go on 1/13/2023, 11:37 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

Every season this topic comes up LET IT GO! The steps have been put in place to ensure wrestlers are doing their weight desent plan if you feel your wrestler is not following there plan correctly then step up and guide your wrestler to do it correctly 😀 or take this to the WIAA your opion is just that your opion for the most part not many agree with your opion.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Sealth Coach D on 1/13/2023, 1:08 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

I agree with you about nothing changing and letting it go, and I said why in my other post. Very few coaches in our sport would be willing to put a scale by a mat before a finals match to see just how significant the weight disparities actually are when kids compete, compared to when they weighed in. We don't care what kids weigh when they actually wrestle, and weight classes are mainly there as a guide for kids to practice cutting weight. How would you go about changing the minds of people who just realized a couple years ago that we can do better than lining up naked schoolchildren as part of our weigh-in process? Or that having facial hair isn't a competitive advantage?

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Dave G on 1/13/2023, 1:39 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

"...lining up naked schoolchildren as part of our weigh-in process? Or that having facial hair isn't a competitive advantage?"

I agree with that. Those are two things that definitely where changed for the better. We have had a few changes over the past few years that got rid of some archaic rules. USAW has lead the way on many of those changes with the requirement of singlet weigh ins and no hair regulations a number of years ago. Glad to see the NFHS following suit. Now if they can just drop the between bout wait times to something more like USAW to remove some issues towards the end of a tournament. NFHS is 45 minutes and USAW is 15 minutes. Maybe meet in the middle at 30 minutes?

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by TAFKA Seattle Coach on 1/14/2023, 8:57 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

You aren't wrong there, Dave! At the time, I thought it silly to weigh in with the singlet on, but it really makes more sense.

For HS, I think 15 minutes is too short (Most USAW matches are 1 minute rounds, plus kids have an unlimited supply of energy that I wish I could borrow). 30 minutes seems about right.

I still chuckle at the people who insisted, "But beards can be used as a weapon if you rub your face against theirs!"

As a ref, I respond, "Technically, there's also no rule against putting your hand on someone's junk and leaving there all match... but if you do either of those, you're getting rung up for unsportsmanlike conduct!"

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Wrestler on 1/14/2023, 9:16 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

The facial hair rule was so bad I feel like you should have seen a class action lawsuit.

There is literally no better way to GUARANTEE transmission of a skin infection than forcing a wrestler to abrade/cut/scrape their face skin with a razor right before a match, without even the proper time for it to heal.

Years from now, we’ll look at that rule the same way we look at mercury, leeches, and putting cocaine in coca cola.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Dave G on 1/14/2023, 9:23 pm, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

"For HS, I think 15 minutes is too short (Most USAW matches are 1 minute rounds, plus kids have an unlimited supply of energy that I wish I could borrow). 30 minutes seems about right."

USAW uses 15 minutes for all ages, including Cadets and Junior (HS age) which are 6 minutes matches just like in high school. I'm with you that 30 minutes might be a good compromise or we just leave it like it is. It doesn't come up as an issue too much. Mostly at scrambles.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Time on 1/15/2023, 7:48 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

Believe college is 25 minutes, Olympics is 15 minute wait time.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Something Different! on 1/15/2023, 9:29 am, in reply to "Re: A Couple Needed Changes"

I personally like the mat-side suggestion. It’s simple. If parents/coaches want to continue to encourage their kids to suck weight and then ask their kids to keep their weight there all day without hydrating well or eating well then they truly don’t have their athlete’s best interest in mind. It’s about them; not their kids which is too often the problem in our sport.

The weight assessment plan is a joke. Most of us know that many kids beat the test so it’s pointless and all of us know that the kids don’t follow the “plan” and lose their weight slowly as intended. The lowest assessed weight becomes their target weight for the post-season whether it’s truly healthy or not. They’ve been given a permission slip with the assessment so that weight is then often expected of the athlete by districts—even if the kid has grown 2” or walks around 15 lbs heavier than that up until a week or two before the post season.

If we are going to have a weight “plan” for our kids, there HAS to be more accountability that the kids are following it throughout the season vs. getting assigned a weight at the beginning of the season to shoot for by year’s end.

If we can’t provide better accountability, then the simplest way seems to be mat-side scales. My pop wrestled into college and was asked to lose stupid amounts of weight. It sucked all the joy out of the sport for him and he wasn’t healthy. Because of this, he made a rule to protect me from the system. If I were to get above 5 lbs of the weight I wanted to wrestle at any time during the season, I had to go up a weight there on out. I never once got above 5lbs and wrestled happy all 4 years while I watched my friends yo-yo all year and be miserable 2/3 of the season. Their weight consumed their mind all season. It’s absolutely stupid in my opinion! Wrestling is supposed to be fun and our obsession to suck weight to gain an advantage is seriously dysfunctional. Our job is to protect our kids physically and emotionally.

Fixing this really shouldn’t be hard and giving kids 2-4 lbs between the start of the season to the end now only adds to the problem! I’ve never seen kids suck as hard as they do now believing with the weight allowance they can “just lose a few more pounds” to drop a weight class.

Re: A Couple Needed Changes

Posted by Marshall C. on 1/12/2023, 1:41 am, in reply to "A Couple Needed Changes"

Do what a lot of others teams are doing with your situation. send your studs to tough tournaments and send your youngsters to smaller tournaments. Travel may be an issue but some schools are finding ways around it.

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