Hi all,vw golf mk7 our own car requires tracking up,have been told it's a dealer job due to adaptive cruise control,it hasn't got lane control,any body do one of these.
Cheers Mike fleet hometune.

Hi Mike,
I think you are ok to set the wheel alignment, as long as you keep the steering wheel centred and SAS at 0.
Setting the camera's/radar will need a dealer unless you have the calibration screen.
Regards Steve Harvey

Yes we do these.
We are near Guildford in Surrey.
DO NOT touch the wheel alignment, it can put the radar out, 1 degree out on the radar is 3.5 meters out at its range so it could totally miss the car in front !!!!
When doing 70mph if it cant see the car in front that's pretty dangerous.

Hi Ian,

I hear this warning all the time but don't quite know if it is scare tactics just like we saw when airbags came in.
Can you explain how the system will change that much when steering angle is retained and only tracking is adjusted?

I can understand the protocol maybe having some difficulty with castor changes and possible large thrust line changes.
But surely when the tracking is outwith OE specifications, due to bush wear or other factors, the the system would be a liability? Not the other way round?

Hi all,there must be someone who's done these before,just had quote from vw £263 ouch.
Hometune

mike as it is your own car, there only one way to find out, put a normal track on it and see what it does

Every thing comes back to the thrust angle.
To do a radar calibration the thrust must be at zero.
I know how the system works and regularly drive them,
I would not want to be doing 70mph racing up behind a car that's braking hard relying on my Active Cruise control to maintain a good distance from the car in front, when it cant see it because the calibration is out.

If anyone doesn't understand why its important to calibrate these properly please read up on these systems.

Calibration is everything as Ian says, to put it simply if you aren't looking where you are going you will hit something if it stops in front of you the same applies to these guidance systems it won't see what it's not looking at !!

If it's looking in the second lane it won't see a car in the first lane !!! even if that's directly in front of you.

I sat in on a talk about this and the main point was any adjustment alters the calibration.

There seems to be a lot of sabre rattling, negativity, and scare mongering going on here.

Sticks head over parapet and says f&*% it.....

Unless I'm missing something, I can't remember the last time I had a car with more than 0.04' thrust angle. With the infinitely adjustable rear suspensions on most modern vehicles, this is adjustable out. Even still, that figure of thrust angle by my guesswork is not going to point the car into the next lane! The radar is certainly going to detect an object 400m ahead and take the necessary action, especially as the vehicle gets closer it will detect it.
Besides, if the driver's not paying attention, smart cruise control or not, they deserve everything they get.

Mike, has your Golf even got smart cruise control? Because if it hasn't, why else would it have radar?
At which point, do the wheel alignment, reset steering angle sensor = job done.

Tony

Hi all,yes it's got adaptive cruise I use it regular.scares the Mrs to bits must say it can be a dangerous bit of kit going up m6 middle lane 70ish. car in fast lane nearly missed his turn off straight in front of me I New he would make the turn but our car didn't.our car brakes very hard to avoid a car that wasn't there, van behind me not too happy nearly caused an accident.joy of modern cars.
Mike hometune

I agree Tony.

Re-calibrating the radar, absolutely special tools needed.

But simple tracking does not seem to need the radar re-setting unless pre-existing problems are already apparent. It only seems to be a risk management exercise. (similar to disconnecting battery for any airbag system work, or re-new all common rail pipes if they have been undone)

You only have to measure the amount of movement in the wishbone- and rear axle bushes of a current Golf as well the degradation in shore hardness within a very short space of time/ miles/temperature to realise the huge spread the radar logic has to deal with. Much more than the few minutes of adjustment the average alignment seems to cover.

A bit of common sense needs to be used I think. If huge amounts of adjustment is needed when alignment is done, it might be wise to check radar or infrared alignment.

As some of you may or may not be aware cars are now being built with crash data recorders.

So when a car driving by its self, (active cruise control) and above in technology.
Has a crash and the driver says he wasn't in control or the car braked, didn't brake etc. when it shouldn't, the insurance companies are going to look for someone to blame.

If you just so happen to be the last garage that looked at it and didn't follow the manufactures procedures correctly you could be blamed.

Guess that your choice how you decide to go.

this topic has got me thinking..
We like many other garages / tyre shops offer wheel alignment.

And we rely on information from Auto Data for the setting specfications as do many other outlets and wheel alignment computers.
our subscription is online and there for up to date.

Mike, i put your car in and there is no guidance notes for adaptive cruise control.

So how do we or any other outlets know that we could be causing a potential problem for the vehicle user by carrying out this service

And before anyone says look at the steering wheel / ask the customer, this is not a realistic answer How many customers even know they have it / how many techs know what to look for?

So if the people are right about it being critical that the car is set up on a radar/target rig in order for the car to be safe, the potential for there to be thousands of cars on the roads that have worn suspension components/ rear axles with thrust angles/ incorrect wheel alignment, is a future disaster to road users YES?

or have manufactures built in a level of tolerance for such things?

what do you think?

I am in no doubt that if a car has been crashed and the radars have been replaced/ removed and refitted hen they need to be set up properly,

but hand-wringing over setting up the correct toe after replacing a ball joint / or suspension arm is unfounded anxiety in my opinion

andy..

Andy, as the radar was set up for the vehicle from the factory within the factory alignment settings, then the radar should be accurate within those tolerances.
Carrying out wheel alignment within the factory settings, (ideally as close to optimum as possible) there shouldn't be a problem. As long as the steering angle is checked or reset as required.

Devils advocate:
The get out clause "well you touched it last" is just that, an excuse not to do it.

Driving down the road hitting a pothole, dropping heavily off a kerb or other end user abuse, always has the potential to disturb the radar or wheel alignment. So if you think they're going to come after you, make sure your liability insurance is up to date.

Tony

You just beat me to it Tony and I agree with you

Radar sensors (usually infa red and calibrated at the factory) are set in the centre of the grill or top of the windscreen, so should not need calibrating unless frontal damage or windscreen replacement, they will detect directly what is in front of the vehicle, distance and speed (or deceleration)

Adjusting the steering alignment (so long as no impact damage has occurred) should have no bearing on the sensors ability to carryout its function

These vehicles are being tracked up and down the country by fast fits / tyre centres who probably do not have a clue these systems are fitted. VW would be obliged to put big stickers in a prominent place to warn repairers to seek advise or refer to dealer before adjusting wheel alignment

VW quoting over £200 to adjust probably to carryout an unnecessary calibration (unless involved in an accident), knowing it's probably only needs a tracking tweak. A customer would not have a clue if it's required or not, dealer would tell them yes as it's a SAFETY ISSUE ..... easy money

Peter

A VW dealer told me they have to issue a calibration certificate when they carry out an alignment to prove this was carried out correctly in case of any claim against them.

It's a bit like having a timing belt fail and Gates saying how did you tension it and with what. If you have the data and tools how can they argue. If you don't how can you argue?

Graham

so back to the OP's original question?

the answer is yes get the alignment done the old-fashioned way if it has not been crashed, and recalibrate the steering angle sensor to be on the safe side.

We also issue a calibration certificate if the Lane Departure Warning system camera, Outside View camera, Smart Cruise Control Radar or Autonomous Emergency Braking Radar is calibrated for insurance purposes (for insurance purpose is because we have a tie in with insurers & windscreen companies for a fixed fee calibration process & therefore have to prove calibration)!
Which I daresay is the very same certificate they are implying too!

No-where in the Kia workshop manuals does it say carry a out a LDWS, Camera or Radar calibration after a wheel alignment.....

Hi all,thanks for a very robust reply from all concerned did not expect such a response,which a few years ago would not have to be asked.These questions will be common place in a few years,good technical information in this area is now critical.companies that offer diagnostic products need to start supporting this trade,with good technical info.Years ago when we used to do diagnostic testing and tuning a few companies we were associated with supported us with first class technical info and test procedures which at that time were class leading technology.Forums like ukat will I feel be so useful in this climate of constant technical advance.
Cheers to all
Mike hometune.

Here is what Supertracker in Autotechnician mag has to say about it....

Over the past thirty years that Supertracker has been supplying wheel alignment equipment, the advances in vehicle technology have continued to move at a much faster pace. Wheel alignment remains the same whatever changes occur but we do now have to consider additional safety systems, such as adaptive cruise control, lane assist, park assist and adaptive headlights. This technology relies on the vehicle having the steering geometry correctly set, along with the radar camera and its systems set correctly, to function properly.

ADAS systems are a hot topic at present and there are several ways to mount the ADAS radar sensing device. Some are mounted to the roof’s header and view through the windscreen; some are mounted to the outside of the rearview mirrors; others in the front grill of the vehicle and some are mounted to a glass bracket on the inside surface of the windshield.

Any vehicle that mounts the ADAS camera to the glass requires that the camera be re-calibrated if the windscreen is replaced to assure proper operation. If the windscreen hasn’t been replaced the camera should still be in calibration.

If, during the life cycle of the car, the alignment needs correcting and the cameras have remained undisturbed, a four-wheel alignment adjusted to the vehicle thrust angle (centreline) is all that is required, as long as the thrust angle remains unchanged from the factory setting.

The bases of all of these procedures is the starting point. Making sure the wheel alignment angles are correct, with a zero thrust angle. From here the cameras may or may not need resetting. If resetting is required, an additional piece of equipment is needed to carry out the camera calibration process. These are available at a separate cost.

Quote:

"DO NOT touch the wheel alignment, it can put the radar out, 1 degree out on the radar is 3.5 meters"

BULLSHIT!

If the wheel alignment requires adjustment back to spec then ADAS cannot be 1 degree out! It's back as it was!

Case in point......

If the wheel alignment is knocked out of true for any reason then why does the ADAS system not detect it is out of calibration & switch itself off & warn the driver with a system fault light?

So customer is absolved for not repairing & recalibrating ADAS of which they are not aware of. But when a garage is proactive & does the right thing & repairs the vehicle back to spec & make it safe & does not perform a ADAS recalibration then the poor technician that does the right thing is in the dock me-lord.

ADAS has to be dynamic in it's operation. There are to many variables & deviations when the vehicle is running on any road.

Can ADAS function on 'B' roads? I doubt it!
The way I see it it requires a datum to follow off which is the road markings on major roads or following a vehicle in a reasonable frame for the radar to detect. Try it on a back lane!

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