Hi guys

I'm in a spot of bother. I serviced a Xsara a month or two ago, just a minor oil change service no other work. After finishing the work i moved it a couple of times then it wouldn't start, crank but no start and the red key icon was flashing on dash

I scanned it and it said fault with key comms to ecu. The ecu locked itself. I was booked a week or more ahead so sent car and owner to local Citroen dealer

Long story short,they replaced the ecu with a new one and charged the lady £4,000.00 She is taking me to court to recover the money. I need evidence of this happening before to prove it was coincidence (bad bloody timing). If any of you have had this happen before can you email me or send records of what you did.

Any help would be great guys

Stuart...as if life isn't hard enough already

Stuart

At £4000, I would hand it on to your insurers, you should be covered for damage to customers vehicle due to defective repair, under your public liability.

Not saying is your fault but hopefully they would fight it

aidan

Hi Stuart,
have you a copy of the invoice from the dealer? I would love to see how they have got the bill to 4K


Andy E

im in australia so it was 4k aus.the rough brekadown was 3 for the ecu and 1k for the diagnostics and repair.my insurace will cover it but not in a small claims court.i suppose im pissed off at being taken to the cleaners when its not my fault.i see letting the insurance pay as admittance of guilt.where does it stop,if you work on a car and the starter fails is that your fault cos you used it during the service,beware of the next car you work on.as i said before any help please.stu.

Very common problem, i have been called to many garages after repair of the Xsara, But i have to say i have never had to replace the ECU or BSI.
Just recoded keys.

Evening Stuart,

Perhaps I am over-simplifying this, but surely they should have to prove that you are liable for this problem? A car can breakdown at any time. Thats how I would tackle it and put the onus on them. Incidentally, what is the exchange rate of Aus$/GBP?

Best of luck

Pete M

PS,,,, Alans post makes very interesting reading. I wonder if someone is having their trousers pulled down...

hi all,
we are mobile and have been called in to citreons before with immo problems just recode keys has always got them going.you have just been unlucky with this one,however i would not send them to dealers without checking car over for myself first.
mike fleet
hometune

there bill says engine ecu part number 0000194063 im not sure if its a eng ecu or bsi.ive tried explaining to the owners all the facts but the local raa and the dealer have told her computers dont wear out so i must have done something,the coil pack failed about two weeks earlier on this car and a auto elec replaced it.then after my service she had the battery replaced apparently, so im trying to link the events.can anyone email me invoices or records of the call outs for these failures you have had,i need to show previous weakness in this model.the courts here dont favour tradesmen.mike can you send me any of your records as proof.over here not so many cits so i dont have lots of people i can call on.cheers stuart.

Hi stuart,we all know that ecus do not wear out.but is it possible
That the coil pack spiked the ecu. which was replaced.and was a
delayed action which is common fault. for spiking ecus.thats if it was an ecu.if it was a BSI unit they are very common to pack up.
i recentley was called out to a peugeot partner. immo light flashing
Would not start. tryed to code keys. had to replace BSI unit.

Regards Greg

thanks greg.im trying to find out if its a ecu or bsi the dealers invoise said inj ecu but i cant find the part number listed anywere they listed on the invoice.we only have one dealer in my state so i cant call them.ill try another interstate.keep those calls comming guys,all help appreciated very much.stuart.

It has to said that a motor vehicle can develop faults at any time during it's life cycle. We have all seen examples of relatively new cars suffering from major failures, seemingly without any intervention from a well intentioned technician.

You would need to see reasonable evidence that shows your negligence before you should consider any liability here.

This is a 12 year old car is it not? Christ if you are to be blamed for every failure that might occur after a visit to your workshop, then you may as well pull the shutters down & go stack shelves.

Yes if you have cocked up & they can provide the right evidence, then I am sure you would be happy to accept it, but until they do I suggest that you stand by your convictions.

I should say that I too have had Peugeot's & Citroen's fail to start after a spell in the workshop, usually after a battery disconnection.

Fortunately I have always managed to recover the situation though, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I have accepted responsibility & absorbed the cost.

After all, I didn't design the flakey vehicle in the first place, I just happened to be there when it fell over.

proof of negligence = Liability = Costs.

If not, bid them Boll**** & ride your luck.

thanks for help and advice guys.im going to court to sort it out.not my choice,the owner has sent me papers.see you after christmas and ill let you all know how it goes.cheers stuart.

Hi Stuart. Could you please clear up the order of events for me.

You said that you moved the car a couple of times and then it wouldn't start so you took it to the dealer. ??

But you also said that the customer had a battery fitted after your service. ?? Was that before it went to the Dealers, Whilst it was there or after she got it back. ??

I See lots of PSA vehicles with immobiliser faults and most of them are usually caused by faulty batteries causing the ecu's and bsi's to get spiked or corrupted, usually as others have said they can be recovered if the person doing the job can be bothered to attempt to save the customer money but Main Dealers are usually more interested in making huge amounts of money to cover their massive overheads and they know that most people believe everything that they say.

I would also say that Simply Disconnecting a battery to fit a new battery can on occasions cause Failure of immobilisers etc.

One thing that I can think of which I have seen several times on Citroen C5's is a Non start situation after fitting a new Battery and the immobiliser warning on the dash, All you have to do in that case is leave the ignition on for a couple of minutes, Turn it off, Back on again and it resets the system and the car will now start. I have started to explain this to the customer before fitting the battery to avoid panic afterwards.

I also warn customers that we will fit them a new battery but we will not accept responsibility for anything that goes wrong assuming that we have done our job correctly and not caused the problem, Otherwise they think that if it goes wrong whilst you are working on it then you must have caused the problem. ( WRONG )
,
H.T.H Tony

Hi Stuart,

I am sorry to hear about the situation you find yourself in. It is a sad fact that in the motor repair trade there are lots of garages out there that DO cause all sorts of problems through their own negligence and ignorance of modern motor technology.

Having said that, it does not mean we should be held responsible for every failure that occurs when a vehicle is in our care.

Like Tony, I think you need to make clear the sequence of events that led to the failure and subsequent actions that ended with a new ECU.

If all you did was the oil change/service and did nothing to cause the none start, you should stand your ground and fight it in court. I know it is easy for me to say but we work on cars of all ages, with all milages plus all sorts of use and abuse that we have no control over. How on earth can we suddenly become responsible for all these years of use when it comes into our hands. If your client was driving the car to work before you had even touched it and it failed, who would they blame then? Where exactly does our duty of care start and end? I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. WRT ECUs wearing? they do not wear out as such, so this makes it even less predictable of a failure and should go in your favour as they can and do fail at any time.

I hope you win the case as it does not set a good precedent if clients can win these cases without any real proof of negligence.

Regards,

Mike

Hi Stuart

My twopennorth...

ECUs and electrics are susceptible to all sorts of
problems due to the harsh environment they are subjected to in automotive use.

To say that they do not "wear out" is not technically correct therefore. Even power-cycling can cause circuit failure over a period of time.

Stand your ground. If you can't get a good automotive tech to back you up then find a good electronics man if you can.

Good luck!

Steve

Hi Stuart

Just to add that if you are being held responsible for the failure then you certainly have the right to have the parts that have been replaced tested by an independent company.
I feel sure your legal representative would insist on it.

Steve

Hi Stuart

I dont know the value of a almost 01 Xsara in Australia, but here in Ireland it would struggle to make 1,500 euro, and even less in the UK I would expect.

$4,000 Aus dollars = euro3,146 or sterling 2,572

Unless values are very different in Australia is this car not a write off as an uneconomical repair? as the insurance industry would put it.

Best of luck in court. But as often with insurance companies, they may see it as a cheaper option to pay out, rather than an expensive day in court.

Best of luck
Jim.

hi guys sorry for tardy reply,ive been on my christmas break and havnt looked at any posts.i serviced the car,oil change only no electrical work.started the car twice after the service and third attempt it did not start.the customer changed the battery some time after the repair by the dealer.im a one man show and have bookings up to two weeks ahead so sent the car to the local cit dealer (big mistake ).they changed the ecu and no i havnt been shown the old ecu for my testing.my insurance company said they would write it off if i claimed or only pay the amount it would cost using good second hand parts.im waiting for a court date now to sort it out.i hope i get a underastanding magistrate.i was never given the opportunity to repair the car after the customer was advised of the cost,just a letter of demand sent to me after,nice huh.thanks for encouragement.stu.

Be interesting to know if the dealer was aware that the car had come to them via another garage or the owner just dropped it off and asked them to fix it.

As i see it you are being accused of negligence so it is up to the accuser to prove this and if all you did is change the oil and filter they are going to have a hard job doing so.
Have your day in court and stand your ground.

By the way I have just priced a DME (ECU) for a 2007 BMW 320i from the BMW agent and it comes in at just over £900, so where the Citroen agent gets there price from is anyone's guess.

Hi Stuart,
Stick to you re guns!
I had a similar problem about 3 years ago, connected a scan tool to a BWM 3 series, while looking at live data the vehicle cut out!
The customer blamed me and tried to claim for a new ecu, car hire and inconvienince etc a total of 500 pounds!
I consulted a solicitor who suggested submitting a cv of my experience in the motor trade with courses attended etc.
He soon backed down, and I nothing further was heard ! good luck
Mike

thanks guys for support and advice.i had the first court mediation direction hearing yesterday.the lady does not want to mediate so now i wait for a court date.ill keep you up to date later.

Hi Stuart, something smells fishy about this; the prices seems inflated even taking Australia into account. If I were you, unless they can supply the old parts & you have an independent report on the old ECU, then anyone could be pulling a fast one. I would strongly argue that in court. I am very surprised that the dealer invoice did'nt list a part no I would have a big question mark on that one. What proof, anything has been fitted to this vehicle, let alone the correct part has been fitted, she could have a relative working for a dealer and have counterfeited the invoice for all you know.

If it is any consolation just after Christmas we serviced a 10 year old Peugeot 206 1.4 petrol, the customer collected the vehicle from us, drove it home & the next day it would not start. We attended the vehicle and brought it back to the workshops & diagnosed an Engine ECU. The customer asked all the usual questions as to whose liability it was but we explained, all we did was a service and did not touch the ECU. She has now taken the vehicle and deciding what to do with it. So you see these things can go wrong at any time it was just unfortunate it happened in your care, as everyone has said stand your ground and argue it from every angle pushing your need for proof it was your negligence and if they can't supply the old faulty parts; I believe they don't have a leg to stand on. All the best Mate.
John Kennard.