Garage Support

Post a Response

PT Cruiser 2.4 2005 - Non start, back firing through inlet manifold #

Posted by Malcolm Tripp on February 3, 2011, 9:58 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2005
( Optional ) Engine Code or CC: 2.4 petrol

Non runner, engine firing back through inlet manifold, carried out physical checks, ie timing belt set ok, compressions ok, scoped with Pico cam and crank sensors seem to be working fine although slightly out of sync, tested at sensor end.

Primary pattern seems ok but amps trace shows upside down for some reason ???

Can anyone help with ecu pin data on this, Autodata once again sadly lacking on info !!!

regards

Malcolm

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by Aidan <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT2879' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 4, 2011, 8:09 am, in reply to "PT Cruiser"
Aidan Birley

Malcolm

Have you checked for blocked exhaust

Aidan

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by malcolm tripp <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5337' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 4, 2011, 11:13 am, in reply to "Re: PT Cruiser"
Malcolm Tripp

Thanks Aiden, yes the exhaust is clear,
I forgot to mention original fault on car was a cracked sump and lost all the oil !

Allegedly running fine before that.

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by martin simonsohn <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=ukat3223' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 5, 2011, 5:35 pm, in reply to "Re: PT Cruiser"

Hi malcolm your amps trace for the coil pack my be down to an inverted trace,
and just a thought if it ran out of oil do they not have hydraulic tappets is it possible that they might not be closing/opening right due to lack of oil pressure??
might be worth checking the valve clearance
martin

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by Malcolm Tripp <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5337' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 6, 2011, 9:17 pm, in reply to "Re: PT Cruiser"
Malcolm Tripp

Hi Martin

I thought about this and the coil primary is the right way up so I feel amps should be as well, I am leaning towards a coil fault ?

Hydraulic tappets, we took the top off and the cam followers have rollers in them, they all seemed to be going up and down ok, the compressions are good so no valves being held off the seat.

Having another look Tuesday when time allows, already spent two days on this and it's turning into a vendetta !

Re: PT Cruiser

hi there sound a bit like me. like a dog with a bone wont put it down until its finished or put u in the nut house.
is your scope capable of saving a jpeg so you can upload it as I'm confused to your reference to the amps trace upside down.
unless the secondary trace is collapsing within the coil IE coil has a shot then the amps trace would peak high and show no burn time or coil oscillations at the end of the trace.
you might try and take a peek at the secondary out puts and compare them all but beware 2 of the for traces will be upside down if its a double ended coil pack.
ps if we all gave up there would be loads of cars in the scrap and horses tied up outside tesco lol

Re: PT Cruiser

this is a coil trace for the 2.4 cryer :-)

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by Malcolm Tripp <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5337' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 7, 2011, 8:32 pm, in reply to "Re: PT Cruiser"
Malcolm Tripp

Martin thanks for that,

I thought the amps trace was upside down due to me having the clamp the wrong way round but upon re checking the trace is missing until the point when primary switches off.

Another coil coming tomorrow but I am not hopeful.

I will see if Pico can save image in jpeg but this may be outside of my expertise with a computer !!

I often marvel at the moving scope patterns some of the boys post on here !

Re: PT Cruiser

i ended up thinking about your current trace being back to front kept me thinking till the early hours.it might be that you are not getting the current ramp and saturation and just a straight up ping if you getting the straight ping line it would suggest a problem with the primary coil winding shorted.
on the bit about moving traces machines like the snap on modis,vantage and verus are capable of recording either a single frame or all frames captured there for being able to save a good waveform for reference and then uploading them.
however i did find the book from tec topics by james dillion about scope testing EXTREMELY explanatory and useful for the odd pain in the neck job or unexplained scope pattern or mind blackout moment where you cant remember how to tie your shoe laces lol.
If you scope both the low tension side of the coil and the current for same coil the two patterns sit together nicely its difficult to explain but once you have seen it you will understand. i will see if i can find one out for you.

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by malcolm tripp <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5337' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 10, 2011, 8:36 am, in reply to "Re: PT Cruiser"
Malcolm Tripp

Hello Martin

Known good coil has not improved the situation, oddly there is a spark but I feel it's happening randomly.

Got Picoscope waveforms into pc but I am finding it impossible to get them on this page even with Mediafire, supposed to be easy to do !!!!

I am not thick or stupid but my brain must work in different circles to every one else.

Re: PT Cruiser

hi have you checked the cambelt timing and oil pressure?

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by Malcolm Tripp <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5337' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 10, 2011, 7:36 pm, in reply to "Re: PT Cruiser"
Malcolm Tripp

Martin

Finally got there with help from my IT expert !!!

See if you can make sense of these.

top crank is blue and cam is red

bottom primary is blue amps is red

Re: PT Cruiser

hi traces are a bit noisy (nothing to worry about) might try filtering
cant see anything wrong with the coil secondary ie i can clearly see the coil oscillations but the critical information like the pull down to ground charge time and spark line are not visible you need to alter your time base (sweep)to give a clearer picture.seriously take a look at james dillions scope book its not dear and its packed full of useful wave forms and scope set up.
however i still think you have a cam timing issue either belt slipped a tooth or the hydraulic tappets are to opening at the correct time due to lack of oil pressure.
seems like a bit of a head banger don't lose heart

Re: PT Cruiser

Martin

I have the book you are talking about and very good it is too, I have been using the pre loaded Pico drop down menus however there has been a development today !

We have gone back to mechanical basics, previously the compression check was done with the Pico first look comparison, all cylinders were over 90% this was misleading, all it really told us was all the cylinders were roughly the same !!!!!

Did an actual compression test today with gauge and all cylinders were around 70 psi adding oil to seal the rings brought them all up to 100 psi.

Looked down plug hole with bore scope but valves are not really visible, I think some thing is going to be taken apart soon to get to the bottom of this.

However this wont explain the lack of amps in the coil trace, cannot go any further without direction from customer who is in Goa until next week. Will keep you posted as and when.

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by Glyn Morgan <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT2543' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 12, 2011, 3:03 pm, in reply to "Re: PT Cruiser"

Hope these help

Regards Glyn

Re: PT Cruiser

Posted by Malcolm Tripp <iframe src='https://members4.boardhost.com/ukautotalk/info/user=UKAT5337' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 16, 2011, 9:19 pm, in reply to "Re: PT Cruiser"
Malcolm Tripp

Had to admit defeat on this one, payment is beginning to look doubtful !!!

I think this car went a lot further with no oil than we have been led to believe !

Thank you all for your input, if I ever find out what the cure is I will post it here, my guess is a new engine !

« Back to index

[ Garage Support ]