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The royal bride who changed England forever

Posted by Martha on November 23, 2020, 9:06 am

This one's for you, Holly.

https://royalcentral.co.uk/features/the-royal-bride-who-changed-england-forever-143814/

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Re: The royal bride who changed England forever

Posted by Hollie24 on November 23, 2020, 9:33 am, in reply to "The royal bride who changed England forever"

Thanks for posting this. Catherine de Valois has long been overlooked--historians tend to like Eleanor of Aquitaine when it comes to influential Queens Consort. But I've long thought Catherine should have her due, outside of Shakespeare. She was astute enough to protect her own interests as well as her oldest son's rights. It also speaks volumes that Henry took on the wardships of his surviving half siblings after he attained his majority and had sufficient power. Most kings back then didn't acknowledge illegitimte half siblings, which is a big argument for Catherine and Owen Tudor's marriage.

I could go on and on about Catherine!

Re: The royal bride who changed England forever

Posted by Martha on November 23, 2020, 11:26 am, in reply to "Re: The royal bride who changed England forever"

Please do go on and on. I'd like to know more about her.

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Re: The royal bride who changed England forever

Posted by karenl on November 24, 2020, 12:01 am, in reply to "Re: The royal bride who changed England forever"

I agree, please do go on! Catherine is an interesting woman and Royal, and she has been neglected by history. The Tudors wouldn't have come into play and influence English Royal history without Catherine.

Re: The royal bride who changed England forever

Posted by JohnW on November 24, 2020, 8:34 pm, in reply to "Re: The royal bride who changed England forever"

There are many examples of illegitimate children of English (and Scottish) royals being recognised and, even, of playing prominent roles at Court. Natural-born daughters were sometimes married to foreign rulers or (very often) to prominent nobles. Sons were often enabled or appointed to high office. Indeed, recognition was the norm, unless the supposed Royal parent did not recognise his paternity. Once the parent had recognised the child, his/her siblings were in no position to contest it, even on becoming King. Even Henry VII continued to appoint Edward IV's natural-born son, Lord Lyle, to high office.

Recognition continued to be common until Victorian times. The last British king to do so was William IV, who married a natural-born daughter to the Earl of Errol, one of whose descendants subsequently married the legitimate daughter of Edward VII. (Other descendants include Lord Norwich and Sarah Miles.)

Although there is no surviving evidence of Queen Margaret having married Tudor, it is impossible to believe that, having found herself with child, she would not have done so, or have pretended to. In either case, the King's not recognising his half-siblings would have been a great insult to his mother's honour which, in turn, would have been used against him by his enemies.

Re: The royal bride who changed England forever

Posted by Hollie24 on November 24, 2020, 9:15 pm, in reply to "Re: The royal bride who changed England forever"

In this instance, it was the brother who recognized his half-siblings. And yes, that is unusual when the offspring comes from the mother. Catherine de Valois's children were in a very different position than those of William IV. The argument here is whether she was married to Owen Tudor or not and the legitimacy of their offsrping. And the focus of this thread is Catherine and her influence on hostory. I contend she and Tudor did marry, that Henry VI knew that a true marriage had taken place, and that that awareness governed his subsequent actions in later assuming wardship of his siblings when he was in a position to do so. The fact there was no opposition to his advancing his half siblings also points to knowledge that they were, in fact, legitimate.

Re: The royal bride who changed England forever

Posted by Hollie24 on November 24, 2020, 9:16 pm, in reply to "Re: The royal bride who changed England forever"

Catherine is something of a passion of mine.

Re: The royal bride who changed England forever

Posted by JohnW on November 25, 2020, 1:45 am, in reply to "Re: The royal bride who changed England forever"

I quite agree with you, Hollie. Although we can never know whether Catherine was married to Owen Tudor or not, I am not aware of any serious claims that she was not. The problem, rather, is that she married secretly, without the KIng's permission and that no documentation has survived to prove the marriage. As I mentioned above, were she not married when she discovered herself pregnant it is impossible to believe that she would not have married Owen as soon as possible. Since there were not any contemporaneous claims that the children were not legitimate, the King, therefore, would have no reason not to recognise his half-siblings, and so I don't understand why it would be seen as remarkable that he did so.

I also agree with you that she is a fascinating character (as is Henry VI, himself). The development of feminist historiography during the past 20 years or so has led to a very welcome re-examination of the lives of a range of Queens-consort and female aristocrats, illuminating the often subtle but important powers they exercised. (This is true also of southeast Asian history.)

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