Ask Ms. Denner

[ Ask Ms. Denner ]

gang rankings

Posted by Terry on November 1, 2009, 9:01 am

I've watched several episodes of gangland about Texas. In each episode the respective gang that is featured on the show is said to be the most powerful so let me ask you who do you view as the post power in the texas prison system out of the gangs listed below:

Tango Blast, Texas Syndicate, Texas Mexican Mafia, Aryan Brotherhood of Texas, Aryan Circle, Los Zetas

Does it vary by institution?

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my last post

Posted by slim on November 16, 2009, 5:34 pm, in reply to "gang rankings"

hello all at tjdo! this is'nt a submission. i was wondering if there was a problem with the response i submitted this morning. it was under the title " lt.wilkerson " on the " gang rankings " subject. the only reason i ask is that all my previous posts have been posted within a few hours. just wondering if there was a problem ( content ect. )THANKS - SLIM

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Lt. Wilkerson on November 3, 2009, 12:24 am, in reply to "gang rankings"

Terry, for your information, most gangland episodes over-glorify Texas prison gangs. People are easily deceived by these episodes because they have little knowledge of prisons gangs, their beginnings, and how they have evolved.

Many television shows about prison gangs exploit people's ignorance and create a mystique about these gangs when there is none.

In terms of who is the most powerful gang -- who cares -- they are not what they used to be.

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by terry on November 7, 2009, 7:25 am, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

I aware of that. There's an old adage that goes " if you have a choice between printing the truth or printing the legegend, print the legend because it will sell more papers" the same is true for these documentary tv shows

Still with that said I'd like an answer to my question

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Maryanne Denner on November 1, 2009, 9:25 pm, in reply to "gang rankings"
Board Administrator

To answer your question who has the most power can depend on the unit or the region. If you want power by numbers Houstone would be the largest.

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by LBG on November 6, 2009, 6:39 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

Actually, I think its a trick question, in the sense that gang power is not necessarily attained {and demonstrated} by institutional {prison} numbers. Ms. Denner's answer is technically correct as far it goes. . .BUT real gang power comes from the free-world and its based on several factors that are ever changing: How much money does any given gang have at its disposal? How much fire-power and how many willing soldiers do they have? Do they have connections to a larger crime organization {Cartel.} How much physical territory {cities-drug routes, etc.} do they control? Do they have a large base in terms of recruitment of younger members?
Suffice to say, it doesn't do much good to have high prison numbers IFyou don't have support, money and control on the streets.

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Lt. Wilkerson on November 11, 2009, 3:56 am, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

The question is really how Terry defines power/powerful. I agree with you in part in terms of what factors determine a crime syndicates power if we use your definition, i.e., financial stability, fire power, loyal and committed foot soldiers, territory, and a possible association to a larger financial base.

I disagree with your point about it not doing any good to have a high concentration of gang members in prison, if they don't have support or control in the streets.

I believe Tango Blast are an ideal example: They have numbers in and out of prison, but they have not demonstrated the same bent on the streets to control them, promote violence or establish a significant financial base due to their lack of organization. In terms of money, they're members independently promote their own hussle without having to benefit other members. At times several of them may be involved in an organized hussle as well.

Having said that, Tango Blast have demonstrated to be formidable in prison considering the above. I disagree with Denner, as well for the reasons mentioned above, that they're the most powerful, but they have certainly earned their notoriety.

I believe Terry ignorantly asked this question because he appears to be somewhat unfamiliar with prison criminal organizations. By no means am I trying to sound condescending either -- I say this with all due respect.

But those in intelligence circles know that the AC should not even be considered an STG. The south of the boarder group he mentioned are not considered a prison gang. Although, public information appears to indicate that they would somewhat answer Terry's question -- being mindful that they are not identified as a legitimate STG by TDCJ.

More specifically, I believe the Texas Mexican Mafia or the Texas Syndicate would best fall under the umbrella of being the most powerful prison gang if we use the above criteria.

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by slim on November 11, 2009, 8:27 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

lt.wilkerson with all due repect to you.you are going to try and tell us that the AC isn't a prison gang? you are out of your mind! i've read the midland-odessa indictment and researched COUNTLESS acts of murder and mayhem committed by these guys. i guess you believe them when they say they are a political organization that are just out to help white men in a hostile evironment? i guess the conflict with the ABT thats left offenders from both sides DEAD is what? self defense? no wonder texas prisons are out of friggin control!

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Lt. Wilkerson on November 12, 2009, 3:17 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

Slim, because I was not specific about the AC, I will indulge you and give you a bone to chew on if it will make you feel better.

Admittedly, the AC's influence has grown in recent years -- specifically in the free world.

Although, even in light of the internal conflicts within the ABT in recent years, what I should have emphasized was that historically and presently, in contrast to the ABT, TS and MM, the AC are mere choir boys.

By the way, I encourage you to read my post again. I did not say the AC were not a prison gang.

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by slim on November 13, 2009, 7:47 am, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

again lt. wilkerson with all due respect ( and i mean that )your going to sit there and tell me that an organization ( or group or gang or what ever the hell you want to call the AC ) with a membership that exceeds FIFTEEN HUNDRED confirmed members and espouses,promotes,and maintains a hardcore racist ideology does not pose a significant security risk to the texas prison system ? they meet the official criteria for an STG in EVERY SINGLE WAY POSSIBLE. you say that their " influence has grown in recent years- specifically in the free world " where do you think the free world members orders and directives come from? tdcj-id thats where! i know the AC party line " we aren't white supremacists we are separatists, we don't condone drug use or violence blah blah blah " it sounds like you buy into that bull crap !!

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Lt. Wilkerson on November 14, 2009, 6:23 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

Slim, I contend that their bark is worse than their bite, and that they are not what you magnify them to be. Yes, on paper they do promote racist ideology, but it's just that, paper.

In fact, would you believe there are confirmed members who are involved in interracial relationships? The ones who are actually hardcore and hold to racists beliefs are minimal. All that stuff you read in their own literature about how hardcore they are is just smoke and mirrors.

It seems to me you're the one whose been sold a hog.

It's also interesting how you mention that their orders and directives come from the leadership in prison. Maybe if they had a more stable leadership your argument and over-glorification of these losers would have some merit.

In the meantime, I believe you have potential and it's obvious you're wanting a little respect and affirmation. But your over-zelaous nature reminds me so much of someone aspiring to be a gang officer, or at best, a rookie gang officer.

You might want to work on that.

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LT. WILKERSON

Posted by slim on November 16, 2009, 8:32 am, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

lt. wilkerson, enough with the extremely juvenile and irrelevant personal attacks , (although i can play that way too if you'd like to continue)lets just talk straight facts here. i wonder if the family of the two murdered police officers in bastrop louisiana would agree with your description of AC members " bark " being worse than their " bite " HUH?. you say the AC's " lack of stable leadership " leads me to " glorify these losers " so your saying the ABT ( which you list as a legitimate STG ) has stable leadership? we both know that to be incorrect. what do you think would happen to the offenders you mention who are involved in inter-racial relationships should that info. be made available to leadership? and , in closing , let me say your knowledge of the AC ( and probably prison gangs as a whole ) is obviously limited to the unit you are working on.

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Re: LT. WILKERSON

Posted by Lt. Wilkerson on November 19, 2009, 1:35 am, in reply to "LT. WILKERSON"

Slim, this will be my last response on this issue.

I'm beginning to think you suffer from some type of inferiority complex. It's laughable that you would go to the extent of sending TJDO a message inquiring why they did not post your message in a timely manner, according to you.

It seems you're desperately wanting your voice to be heard and hungry for some type of notoriety. You should thank the fine folks at TJDO for providing you a platform to make you feel important.

I will not try to refute your empty strawman arguments as they are just that -- empty.

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Maryanne Denner on November 11, 2009, 4:55 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"
Board Administrator

I understand what you are saying and I agree..however I was looking at it from a numbers point of view. The TS and MM are still very powerful but not like they were back in the game (the 80's). If the TS had a more manpower or the hold like they used to Houstone would think twice about going to war with them like they keep insisting.

You make an excellent point and a great post...this is what the board is all about. Thanks

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by LBG on November 11, 2009, 7:35 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

At the risk of beating a dying horse. . .{I have no dog in this fight and don't wish to offend anyone} I'll just say that anyone {TDCJ, DEA, Local-Law-enforcement, the Governor, etc, etc.} who thinks "...the gangs aren't as powerful as they used to be," is NOT looking at the big picture. Prison gangs are only a small {but significant} part of the "gangland culture."
It is and unarguable fact that the cartels {both inside and outside the USA} have alliances {partnerships} with various gangs in Texas and across the country. If that was true in the 80's, it was only to a small degree. The gangs AND the Cartels have become much stronger, in terms of money, body-count, number of soldiers, infrastructure sophistication, etc.
The "law-enforcement intelligence community" may not want to admit that simple fact publicly, but it is nevertheless true.
That will be my last word on the matter. . .

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Maryanne Denner on November 7, 2009, 9:57 am, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"
Board Administrator

I also lean towards the fact that many of these gangs have support and money in the pen. They may not have complete control but they have some officers under their control. THe key for prison adminstrators to keep control is effective gang management but heck that is a whole nuther subject..

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by LBG on November 8, 2009, 1:29 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

yup. . .many of the gang members in prison do have support both from the free world AND from crooked officers {thru bribery, coercion, alleged romance, etc} but the vast majority of this action is so far under the TDCJ's radar it doesn't even register as a factor in gang evaluation.
Which is why the most dangerous gang members have always been {and will remain so} the ones not yet identified. IMHO. . .TDCJ is so far out of the loop when it comes to tracking, identifying, and monitoringthe wannabes that its a non-starter. The TDCJ doesn't know how to be proactive in this area, why, because that expertise was lost years ago.

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Maryanne Denner on November 8, 2009, 1:53 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"
Board Administrator

Can I get a witness and an Amen from the congregation?

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Re: gang rankings

Posted by Susie on November 4, 2009, 11:47 pm, in reply to "Re: gang rankings"

Ms Denner I strongly agree on that issue. Each respective unit varies on numbers of famas however you walk on a unit you can count on having a large % of the gang members to be Tangos which Houstone is the largest!!!

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