Posted by Steven on 25/6/2011, 9:44:38, in reply to "Re: The Bad Girl"
76.186.51.185
What did you think of the French clinic's treatment of Lily? -- rest, seclusion, hypnosis, and--above all--not confronting her with the fact that she is either lying or delusional about her story of being raped in Nigeria?
(Poor Sterling, we never let you leave your day job behind! 
)
There was actually another novel I read quite recently where the characters are even more in parallel with those of The Bad Girl, but it is so obscure I didn't bother mentioning it: The Sufferings of Prince Sternenhoch (pub 1928) by Ladislav Klima. I guess the point of all this is that we didn't find anything particularly original or penetrating in The Bad Girl, did we?
--Previous Message--
: I have read neither Manon Lescaut nor Venus in Furs .
: The reviewer for the New York Times considers The
: Bad Girl to be a rewrite or "remaking" of
: Madame Bovary , which I personally don't see at all.
: I know that the word masochism comes directly from
: Sacher-Masoch's Venus in Furs . It sounds as though
: the character in that novel is indeed a masochist. In
: my opinion, Ricardo is not. He seems to take no
: pleasure in being mistreated. Indeed, the closest he
: comes to flushing the Bad Girl out of his life is
: after the voyeur incident with the yakuza, which
: disgusts and horrifies him.
:
: And despite being in love with a woman named, at one
: point, Madame Arnoux, Ricardo bears no resemblance
: whatsoever to Frederic Moreau. While Frederic spends
: years supposedly "in love" with Madame
: Arnoux, he pursues several other women, usually for
: reasons of money or envy. Rarely for pure lust and
: never for open-hearted selfless love.
:
: Although I admit that the plot feels familiar, I can
: not put my finger on what it reminds me of. Not
: really Flaubert, maybe Zola (but which?), certainly
: French!
:
: Anyway, Lale, I'll take a crack at psychiatric
: diagnosis of "Lily" and Ricardo. At first I
: thought that Ricardo might be delusional and see his
: childhood sweetheart in other women. That might have
: been interesting--sort of like "Vertigo."
: But no, she really is the same girl. She is certainly
: personality disordered. I think that she is a mix of
: the Cluster B personality disorders: Antisocial,
: Narcissistic, Histrionic, and Borderline. From
: Antisocial she has no remorse or conscience, contempt
: for social norms, and no regard for the truth. From
: Narcissistic, her sense of entitlement, belief that
: she is "special," and exploitation of
: others. From Histrionic, her flair for the dramatic
: and her use of her sexual charms to advance her goals.
: From Borderline, an unstable sense of self,
: manifested particularly in the huge changes she
: undergoes with every man with whom she is involved.
:
: For Ricardo, I think that we have to leave formal
: psychiatric diagnosis entirely and move to the
: language of twelve-step groups. I think that Ricardo
: is codependent. Although this term was overused,
: over-genralized and run into the ground back in the
: 80's, it is actually a useful concept. It involves
: putting the needs of another far ahead of one's own
: needs to one's own detriment. Such people are
: addicted to the behavior patterns of another person in
: a way that is ultimately harmful to both. It destroys
: the life of the codependent person while reinforcing
: the negative behaviors of the person to whom they
: cling. It is important to emphasize that codependency
: is fundamentally addictive behavior. Ricardo can't
: stay away from her anymore than an alcoholic can stay
: away from the bottle. But he is not actually addicted
: to her, he is addicted to the feelings of being
: helpful and needed, of being the Knight in Shining
: Armor, of being...yes...the Godd Boy. And by his
: codependency, he needs her to be the Bad Girl. He
: thinks he wants to possess and dometicate her himself,
: but really he needs her to be the Bad Girl, and his
: behavior reinforces hers.
:
: Perhaps I will refine these ideas further as more
: thoughts come to me. Diagnosis is an ongoing, dynamic
: process. {Aren't we full of ourselves! :-)}
:
:
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: I have read Manon Lescaut, because it was mentioned in
: Alexandre Dumas Fils' La Dame aux Camelias. Maybe if
: Manon Lescaut lived today she would be like the bad
: girl.
:
: Bad Girl: The book was enjoyable enough, even a bit of
: a page turner. But when there is no one who can ground
: the story to reality, it becomes less of a story
: because you just keep reading about these sick people.
:
: The author on purpose makes Ricardito cave in, again
: and again, just to frustrate the reader. We expect him
: to draw the line at some point but he is incapable of
: saying no to this woman. And that's the whole point of
: the story. The author accomplishes his goal of
: frustrating the reader but I don't know if it makes it
: a good book or a recommendable book.
:
: I enjoyed the parts in Paris because I recognized a
: lot of places I've been to and a lot of streets I have
: walked through.
:
: I would like to hear Sterling's analysis of the two
: main characters.
:
: Lale
:
:
:
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