Posted by Ray Kidder on 9/15/2009, 4:03 pm, in reply to "Re: The grammer of the Lord's Prayer"
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Searcher,
This is from Matthew 28 (NKJV):
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Verse 20 implies that what Jesus taught His 11 disciples (including the Lord's prayer back in Matthew 6 & Luke 11) pertains to all Christians of all the nations; right?
If you think this great commission was contingent upon the Jewish religious establishment's acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God, then why did Jesus claim they would reject Him back in Matthew 21:33-46, and that Jesus told them "“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."?
You wrote:
"Jesus was addressing His disciples, not any assembly today. Luke 11:5-110 is a parable comparing asking a friend for help with asking God for help. The word your Bible translated 'persistence' is actually the Greek word anaideia which means 'shamelessness or impudence'. It has nothing to do with repetition of a prayer."
I agree with your second sentence, but I do not agree with the rest. The story of the man going to his friend's house at midnight implies that only one request for the bread is not enough. If only one request were made, the initial denial would have been the end, with no bread handed out. This is from Luke 11 (Young's Literal Translation):
5 And he said unto them, `Who of you shall have a friend, and shall go on unto him at midnight, and may say to him, Friend, lend me three loaves,
6 seeing a friend of mine came out of the way unto me, and I have not what I shall set before him,
7 and he from within answering may say, Do not give me trouble, already the door hath been shut, and my children with me are in the bed, I am not able, having risen, to give to thee.
8 `I say to you, even if he will not give to him, having risen, because of his being his friend, yet because of his importunity, having risen, he will give him as many as he doth need;
9 and I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you;
10 for every one who is asking doth receive; and he who is seeking doth find; and to him who is knocking it shall be opened.
11 `And of which of you -- the father -- if the son shall ask a loaf, a stone will he present to him? and if a fish, will he instead of a fish, a serpent present to him?
12 and if he may ask an egg, will he present to him a scorpion?
13 If, then, ye, being evil, have known good gifts to be giving to your children, how much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!'
In verse 8, the translator used the word "importunity". this is the definition of "importunity" from an internet dictionary:
1. the state or quality of being importunate; persistence in solicitation.
2. importunities, importunate solicitations or demands.
One of the definitions says that "persistence" is associated with "importunity". How can there be persistence without repetition, or at least additional prayer requests that convey much the same meaning?
If the Lord's prayer of Luke 11 is associated with praying the 10 Commandments, wouldn't this prayer be appropriate for all peoples of all times, as the obedience to the 10 Commandments is associated with God's will for all people for all times?
I agree that man does not live by bread alone, but this does not mean that bread is unnecessary.
Ray Kidder
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