Posted by Ray Kidder on 7/7/2009, 5:16 pm, in reply to "Re: The death of Romans 7:9 & five questions"
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Searcher,
I agree with much of your post, for I agree that there is a dichotomy between the flesh and the Spirit. You wrote:
"As long as we are in this body of flesh, there will be conflict. Only death will free us from this body of sin. The flesh and all that has to do with the flesh (the evil thoughts, the senses, the desires and lusts,etc.) all end in death. (1Cor 15:22; Ro 8:6-8) Even now, we are to reckon our old man as dead. We are to identify with Christ's death to the point where we consider ourselves crucified with Him. At the same time, we should also identify with His resurrection.(Gal 2:19) He is our life. When we die, the breath of life leaves us, our thoughts perish, and we return to the dust from which we came, but Christ knows who are His. Even when we are in the grave, Christ remembers us. We will be resurrected with bodies like His."
You make it seem as though a Christian cannot escape the weakness of the flesh until after he dies, such that there is no walking in newness of life during his life. You even quoted Romans 7:25, which teaches:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord, So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
This says that St. Paul was able to serve the law of God.
Going further into Romans 8 we read (NKJV):
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Notice how verse 9 says that Christians are not in the flesh, such that they are no longer bound to the weakness of the flesh, such that they can then please God.
Likewise in Galatians 5 (NKJV), we read:
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Notice how in verse 16 it says that we can avoid the fulfillment of the lusts of the flesh. Isn't this something that occurs during this life, before physical death?
Also, you wrote:
"Romans 7 is directed to Paul's brethren, the Jews."
Although it seems likely that some of the original readers of this Epistle were Jewish Christians, and St. Paul may have been thinking of unconverted Jews converting to Christianity by reading this letter, I consider this letter to have been directed to Christians.
I still do not understand why you do not believe there is such a thing as a non-physical death in Christianity, especially in light of Romans 7:9 (and other verses which I have quoted on this board).
Ray Kidder
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