Posted by Ray Kidder on 7/2/2009, 5:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Turning to Ephesians 2"
98.204.216.96
Searcher,
Thanks for your response.
I agree with much of your post. I agree that the story of the prodigal son has to do with contrition and humility, of the sort that is associated with salvation. I do not see how the older son was damned on the basis that he was not contrite and humble. The story of the prodigal son involves alienation from both sons, and the solution to the problem of alienation from the older son is not given. Therefore, to me, the story comes across as an incomplete story.
You wrote:
"The parable of the prodigal son is not the same truth as that found in Ephesians 2. The return of the prodigal son illustrates the joy God our Father feels when one who was lost is found (i.e., turns to Him)."
Here are the verses from Luke 15 (NKJV) that teach of death and resurrection:
24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
I agree that the father considered this son to be lost and found, but it also mentions a death and resurrection. This death and resurrection is not physical, so I think it is appropriate to call it a spiritual death and resurrection.
If you claim there is no such thing as a spiritual death (as contrasted with a physical death), how do you describe St. Paul's experience as written in Romans 7 (NKJV):
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
St. Paul was not born dead, for he was once alive (verse 9). He had not yet physically died either.
This is from Luke 11 (NKJV):
44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.”
These people were not physically dead either.
If there is not resurrection from (spiritual) death in this life, what about this passage from Romans 6 (NKJV):
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Verse 11 says we should reacon ouselves as being dead. Verse 13 tells of us being alive from the dead. If we are alive from the dead, then we mush have been (spiritually) dead in the past; right? If we walk in newness of life (verse 4), then haven't we been resurrected from death even though the second coming of Christ has not yet occurred, and we have not yet physically died?
If I am wrong about Luke 15:24 & 31, why did the father claim that his son had died and come back to life again? Was the father wrong? You mentioned "the prodigal son who had been given up as dead by his father". If the prodigal son was only thought to have been physically dead, why didn't the father say that his son was thought to have been dead instead of claiming he had died and come back to life?
Ray Kidder
Message Thread:
« Back to thread