Posted by Ray Kidder on 4/8/2009, 9:47 pm
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Dear Readers,
Hal asked some questions of me in a post earlier today. Jim also had a recent post that I want to respond to. These were getting too far to the right, so I am trying to repond here with a new thread
Hal asked "Aren't we all alienated form God to some extent? Isn't that part of being human? Who is to say when we are so alienated form God that we are spiritually dead?"
These question reminds me of this passage in Romans 7 (NKJV):
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
This passage tells of how by the law is the knowledge of sin. Evil desires became apparent as a result of his attempt to obey the law. He did not have to outwardly act against the law to feel these desires, so his sin could still be hidden from other people, but not from God. Without the knowledge of these evil desires (produced by the commandment), he would not have know of his sinfulness, and he would not have needed to feel ashamed, and hence alienated from God. Those who only obey the law by outward appearance, but who still sin inwardly by their evil desires are like Adam and Eve when they wore aprons of fig leaves. This form of clothing was not good enough to hide their shame before God, so they hid behind trees. Most people know something about God's commandments, and are aware of how they have broken them. However some sins are so shameful and/or hard to overcome that they realise that they need special grace in order to deal with their self-loathing. When this self-loathing comes in, I would say that spiritual death and alienation from God becomes especially apparent. This can be seen in Luke 15:18-19,21, which are shown below.
Hal also asked "What's the difference between "spiritual resurrection" and rebirth?"
I do not know if there necessarily is a difference bertween a spiritual resurrection from the dead and rebirth. I suppose someone could consider themselves to have been reborn when they changed from (say) a non-alcoholic to alcoholic, capitalist to communist, or even non-covetous person to covetous person (through the striving to obey the law as explained above). Such changes may be born again experiences that are not from the Holy Spirit, so they are not ones that resurrect a person from spiritual death to life.
________
Jim had mentioned the older son in the story of the prodigal son. I agree that this is a story about both sons. It is not a story about just one or the other son.
Jim had asked me what would have shaken up the first century listeners of the story of the prodigal son. My answer is that from the context of the story, many of the Pharisees would have been sympathetic to the older son, who complained about the special treatment his father was bestowing upon the younger son. I do not think of this story as being a lesson for just one kind of person. I think Christians today can relate to this story from the standpoint of a father, a prodigal son, and a self-righteous son. I also view this story as one that has a missing ending since it ends with the father's problem of alienation from his older son.
My question to Jim is "How does this aspect of the story somehow negate my belief that the younger son had died and experienced a resurrection from the dead (and was also born again)?"
Here is the story of the prodigal son from Luke 15 (NKJV) again:
11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons.
12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood.
13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living.
14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want.
15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,
19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.”’
20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him.
21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet.
23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry;
24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
25 “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing.
26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’
28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him.
29 So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends.
30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours.
32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Don't Verses 24 and 32 say that the son was dead and then came back to life again?
How can this be other than a resurrection from the dead? Can someone be born again (or have a rebirth) without dying and coming back to life? Is there a passage of scripture that you can point to, or even a 21st century example of someone who was born again without somehow dying and coming back to life?
Ray Kidder
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