Posted by SB on 4/13/2002, 2:29 pm

And as far as “getting things done more,” what you appear to mean in practical terms is that “the passionate” get people saved in greater numbers. Revivalist religion is better able to manipulate people’s emotions into conversion experiences than other religions. But are the conversions thus produced deeper or more lasting than the “quiet” conversions? What is the quality and strength of the subsequent life of faith led by those saved in Pentecostal revival meetings versus those who are saved by quietly reflecting upon the scriptures taught them in a traditional church? Who is the most successful in building churches (that is, in creating the relationships in an assembly of believers that produce a living body of Christ as it is manifested locally) that last? I think the evidence is against you here. You also write “When I wrote that ‘the Lutheran Church, for the most part, can’t bring that (the gospel) to them (the people of the more difficult unconventional mindsets [some of the ones I listed were “the worst criminals, the drug addicts, the underworld, the insane, the Wiccans, the Satan worshipers,’ etc.]),’ you responded with ‘It can’t? Why not?’ “The answer is simple: Because they’re just not interested in it, the Lutheran Church. Because it appears ‘dead’ to them.” This is a curious answer. Drug addicts are not interested in the Lutheran church, but they are interested in the Pentecostal church? I don’t think so. Again, maybe you mean that once we get them into a Pentecostal revival meeting they are more vulnerable to sensationalistic and emotional appeals. But having once responded, what kind of foundation will they receive for a real life of faith? Not much of one, according to my observations. And maybe the Lutheran church does appear “dead” to drug addicts—not nearly as exciting as the rush they get from heroin, no doubt—but you’re back again to saying we have to appeal to these people’s notions of excitement in order to attract them, instead of relying upon the Spirit working through the preaching of the Word, which seems to me to be the New Testament method. How do you read it? The answer is not in finding an approach that “appears” to be alive to drug addicts, but in preaching and teaching the living Word to all. You also write “And that’s not even to mention the bigger problem, that most, the majority of Lutherans, aren’t even born again themselves.” How do you know that? Are you God? How do you define being “born again”? Nearly everyone I knew in both the Lutheran Church and at the Chapel defined being “born again” as repenting of their sins and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. And the majority of the people I knew in the Lutheran Church proved that better by their lives than have the majority of the people at the Chapel. Are you now working with a different definition of “born again”? Do you mean that someone has to have an emotional experience in a revival meeting to be truly “born again” in your eyes? You also write “You also must consider that most Lutheran clergymen deny the authenticity and complete inspiration of the Bible, the virgin birth, the deity of Jesus and many of the fundamental truths of the Gospel of Christ.” I have been speaking of the branch of the Lutheran Church of which I used to be a member—the Missouri Synod. It adheres faithfully to the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible, and to the other fundamentals of the faith. It was as appalled as you are as it watched the other major branches of the Lutheran Church (the LCA [Lutheran Church in America] and ALC [American Lutheran Church]) go completely liberal over the past 40 or 50 years. You didn’t make it, but the argument was often made at the Chapel that the Lutherans and other traditional denominations are relatively stable because Satan does not feel threatened by their activity and hence leaves them alone. But that’s not a very knowledgeable analysis of warfare, spiritual or otherwise. The most successful battle tactic is to attack your enemy hard at the weakest point in his line. I think Satan has accurately identified the church’s weak flank, and that’s why Pentecostals take so many spectacular hits, and why we see so many casualties coming from that sector. Sincerely, Steve ____________________ To Steve: Replies from Marvin [Part 1] Posted by Marvin on 9/28/2001, 2:35 pm “I am not angry at you, nor at anyone else on this board. Certainly not as angry as you are at me for merely relating my personal experience and the lessons I feel I have learned from it.” No, I’m not angry at you, Steve. Some of the things you have said sometimes have landed like a slap in the face to some beliefs I hold to, but I must bear in mind that it appears that you have suffered some bad treatment from some people at Chapel. I can sympathize with that, because I’ve been through it too. I went through some years of anger at Don Barnett and some of the Chapelites mindlessly parroting his cruel race-hatred attitudes, and it was upsetting to me (though that wasn’t an issue most people were affected by). But I later came to deal with the anger, and to separate emotional feelings from logic and the processes of determining biblical truth itself, and to refrain from just dumping doctrinal truths down the drain because of feeling anger at some people. But I’ll get into that more up ahead. You say: “Drug addicts are not interested in the Lutheran church, but they are interested in the Pentecostal church? I don’t think so.” Well Steve, it’s what we have seen. The churches and evangelistic groups that have reached drug addicts have by and large been Pentecostal/charismatic, and the truth is, there has been comparatively little success at it in the old-line denominations (at least in their non-charismatic presentations). The old-line denominations have been better at reaching the people who grew up living good and wholesome lives and going to church—but what about the people who haven’t? I say whoever has the ability to reach whomever for Christ, the effort should be applauded by the others, even if that means us former Chapelites applauding the old-line denominations when they bring the plan of salvation to the people they’re able to bring it to. “The answer is not in finding an approach that ‘appears’ to be alive to drug addicts, but in preaching and teaching the living Word to all… maybe you mean that once we get them into a Pentecostal revival meeting they are more vulnerable to sensationalistic and emotional appeals.… You’re back again to saying we have to appeal to these people’s notions of excitement in order to attract them….” No, I believe to the contrary. I say there must be more than just “sensationalistic and emotional appeals” “to their notions of excitement.” I remember when I first came to Chapel, I was already born-again, I already knew God, and I remember how the worship I saw in the service bore witness with my spirit that this was the presence of the God I already knew. I know that won’t convince you, but I remember how I sensed the Spirit of God. I remember, for example, one time during an evening service back in 1976, I was there in the service sitting up in the front while the congregational singing was going on, and I remember one song we were singing that night. It was the one that went: We-e worship and adore thee, bow we down before thee, songs of praises singing, hallelujahs ringing…. Hal-le-LU-jah… HAL-le-lu-jah… hal-le-lu-jah... a-a-a-men. I remember looking up at the faces of the people in Music Ministry up on the platform. Sheila Hanley was one person I specifically remember that evening being up there among them singing. They were looking up towards God, their eyes closed as they sang. The song continued on. Something was happening. What was it that was happening? There was something I saw in their faces. Like a glowing? But did I really see it? Or was it that I felt it? I didn’t PHYSICALLY see anything—other than the people standing there singing, the platform and the wall behind them. But there was something there. How we know from what we read in Scripture, about how God is a Being who is filled with love, and his love is toward us, the wayward human race. Mercy, lovingkindness, grace, compassion, yet at the same time he is an all-POWERFUL Being, one who fills the entire heavens and earth and is power and might unlimited. Not just some force, but a Being… complete with a mind and a personality. And what happens when you’re sitting face to face with somebody, another human being, maybe talking or something? Besides the conversation the two of you may be engaged in, you’re right there with the person, hearing them breathing, seeing inside their eyes, sensing their feelings—in both ways, both physically, from seeing the expressions on their faces, as well as non-physically, by sensing their feelings from picking them up yourself, due to the person being in close proximity to you. I remember something was happening as we sang and looked up towards God worshiping him. It wasn’t just something I was imagining. I knew something was really happening there. I knew the people all around me were sensing it too. I could sense in them that they were sensing something, the same thing I was sensing. I then noticed that their arms were going up in the air. Some had already been up, but many more were going up now. (Continued)