Posted by SB on 4/13/2002, 2:12 pm

It can’t? Why not? It preaches the Word of God, and depends upon the Spirit to work through it. Is that not adequate? Are you suggesting that the Lutherans need to work on the presentation of the message to make it more “relevant” or “exciting” to a particular audience? Liven up the message with more loaves and fishes for those we think need to be attracted by offers that will gratify their physical appetites? There is New Testament precedence for that, I will grant you that, but it is not an approach recommended by Jesus. The kind of people he wants are ones that are drawn by the Spirit working through the Word, no matter if they are drug-addicted criminals or staid insurance agents. I was not talking about what kind of people they were before they met Christ, but what kind of people they were helped to become by the churrches they became a part of. I claim that, overall, the Lutherans I knew passed that test much better than us Chapelites. ---------- Re: Passion.... Posted by Chris W on 9/22/2001, 3:31 pm , in reply to “Re: My viewpoint....” I find this discussion of passion interesting. Do we always know someone is passionate about something because of outward displays? Since Lutheran is the denomination mentioned I’ll use it to ask: Because the Lutheran church doesn’t display “Pentecostal passion,” does that mean they are not passionate about God? My answer would be that we cannot judge people by the outward. By the same token, for someone who manifests a lot of outward passion about God, does it always follow that this is what is happening in their hearts? My answer would once again be that we cannot judge people by the outward. It really comes down to the fruit of their lives, right? (I’m already sensing by Steve’s postings that he feels the Lutheran church teaches the message of salvation, so that isn’t the issue I’m talking about.) What’s wrong with stability and maturity in God that quietly, rather than gregariously, manifests itself? I’m not sure I understand what Marvin thinks a Lutheran has to do in order to prove they are just as worthy of God’s kingdom as those who freely move about in Pentecostalism. I don’t think it’s safe to assume that people who dance and shout in the name of the Lord necessarily have a corner on the market when it comes to a genuine relationship with God. Marvin’s post reminds me of the Chapel teaching that seemed to say we couldn’t be a part of God’s kingdom unless we danced, spoke in tongues, cast out demons, shouted, forsook our family ties, judged each other harshly, sang music “borne of the spirit,” didn’t use drums... oh, I could go on endlessly. Our lives at the Chapel were about as flawed and unstable as you can get. Families fell apart, for crying out loud. If anyone ever thought the Lutheran church might be one of “works,” just look at the Pentecostal church, and particularly Community Chapel. We had a rule on just about everything, and golly, when I think of it, most of it had to do with the outward. Looking back, I think I was more of a Martha at Community Chapel. Although I say this humbly and acknowledge that anything from God is a gift of mercy, I have probably experienced more of Mary’s heart outside of Community Chapel. I am humbled by this. To dismiss the quiet soul who is uncomfortable with outward displays is to dismiss a large part of God’s kingdom. Surely Marvin doesn’t believe that we have to fit a Pentecostal or charismatic mold in order to experience God in His fullness. I’d say that’s a slap in the face of God, and an attempt to limit God’s ability to move unless a person essentially changes a part of their innate nature. Does Marvin think God is really that small? ---------- First Chris.... Posted by Marvin on 9/23/2001, 5:45 pm , in reply to “Re: Passion....” Chris, I’ll answer your post first, before going on to Steve’s, since yours is the easier one, because I have no disagreements with what you say. You were only wondering if I believed a few things that I don’t believe. In my days at Chapel, I was often one who dispensed the teaching to those around me that outward acts such as raising one’s hands and speaking verbal praises to God by themselves neither brought the presence of God nor could they be indicators of how much the Spirit was present within someone. I used to say it was like the fuel gauge on your car. If you wanted the tank to be filled with gas, you couldn’t just take the plastic cover off the fuel gauge, move the needle with your finger to “full,” then tack it there. The tank really had to be full in order for the car to be powered. Likewise, you couldn’t just raise your hands, say “Praise you, Jesus! Glory!” and expect that by itself to mean the Spirit was really moving deep inside you. It can’t be just an outward act. I’m all in favor of Pentecostal worship, but I think I must be one of the worst people at it. I am by nature, more on the stoic side, less prone to outward expressions of praise and love, but my opinion still is in favor of charismatic worship—an opinioin I think I have the right to, just as I respect your right to your opinion—and it still comes out of me every now and then, whenever the Spirit moves that way, though I couldn’t call myself any spearheader of it. I remember an interesting thing someone who came from a Lutheran Church told me a number of years ago. He told me about how in the earliest days of the Lutheran Church, when Martin Luther first came to the revelation of how to be born again, and was establishing all the ritual and liturgy in the church he was setting up, he set it with everything having symbolic meanings pertaining to the plan of salvation and walking with God. And since ritual and liturgy were all he understood about how a church should be run, he and all those who were with him prayed and prayed earnestly for the Spirit of God to fall in their services. They prayed and they believed God for it. So what did God do? He was faithful and he answered their prayers. While all the ritual and liturgy was going on, he sent the presence of the Holy Spirit to the people present. It was a powerful move that swept all across Germany and the rest of Europe. But centuries later, when the people of the Lutheran churches had forgotten that part of it, but still remembered the ritual and the liturgy, it just didn’t have the same effect anymore. And it wasn’t even the thing that brought the Spirit of God to begin with; rather, what did bring it had been Luther and his men praying and believing in God for it. I’ve been aware of groups that go around to Lutheran churches calling the people into seminars so that they can teach them the Four Spiritual Laws, and I think that’s wonderful. Why do I think it’s wonderful? Because it’s the difference between heaven and hell. Cal Fredeen used to tell about how that was the way he first came to be born again, back when he was still in the Lutheran Church. Once years ago, after I was out of the Chapel and at another Pentecostal church, someone from a different church commented to me, something to the effect of, “You don’t seem like a very emotional person. What if your outward expression of worship isn’t as emotional as other people in your church?” I answered that what matters most to God is what is going on in the person’s heart. She said, “Well, I totally agree with that.” Now, you ask: “Do we always know someone is passionate about something because of outward displays?” And I say no—and even in Chapel days, back in the seventies, I used to be one who made a case about this, that we can’t really judge what goes on in someone’s heart by how expressive they are on the outside. Sometimes it may be to some degree indicative of it, but people are such individuals that you can’t just tell by looking at the outside to determine everything that’s going on on the inside. “I’m not sure I understand what Marvin thinks a Lutheran has to do in order to prove they are just as worthy of God’s kingdom as those who freely move about in Pentecostalism.” Now we’re on another issue. Worthiness before God. Well, my viewpoint on that issue is simply what the Bible says about it: “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” That means not one single solitary human being who has ever existed—with the single exception of Jesus Christ—has ever been worthy before God. We all get a zero in that department. Stoic people get a stoic zero and passionate people get a passionate zero. What’s zero times zero? What do I think a Lutheran has to do in order to prove they are just as worthy of God’s kingdom? If those people who go around to the Lutheran churches teaching the Four Spiritual Laws would take it to ALL the Lutheran churches, and if all the people in all the Lutheran churches would take them up on it and follow it, I would be delighted. I believe the born-again message enables people to enter the Kingdom of God—though none of us are worthy of it—and the grace we receive at salvation is the only thing that can get us in. “Marvin’s post reminds me of the Chapel teaching that seemed to say we couldn’t be a part of God’s kingdom unless we danced, spoke in tongues, cast out demons, shouted, forsook our family ties, judged each other harshly....” Did the Chapel teaching really say that? Or was that just the unfortunate thought-process of some of the people at Chapel? I used to be one who tried to cling to the facts about which things are necessary for what, what things are and aren’t God’s will for our lives and which things lead to what. I was one who tried to go easy on the judging. “To dismiss the quiet soul who is uncomfortable with outward displays is to dismiss a large part of God’s kingdom.” Anybody who has been born again and is walking with God, I would not attempt to dismiss from the Kingdom of God. (Continued)