Posted by JR on 1/6/2002, 6:50 pm

Consider Posted by Dave Kenady on 12/15/2001, 4:48 pm Also, consider the "tribulation" of those who have gone before us. Were they raptured out, or did they "love not their lives unto death"? Consider Enoch: Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him. Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Apparently, God has already been unfair, in that Enoch was taken and non other save one, Elijah. We've all had to tough it out. So, rapture or not, God has already seen fit to take one and leave the rest. A pre-trib rapture would not be contrary to this precedent. Consider Elijah, "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw [it], and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces." (2 Kings 2:11-12) God also saw fit to take Elijah and leave the rest of us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Again, there is a precedent for God taking those who pleased Him. The other problem I have with your statements in general is that it still leaves me wondering what Rev 12 means, as well as 1 Thes 5 and all other passages related to an out-translation of the saints. Your logic sounds great, but the Bible still says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10) Also in Luke, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) There is something here that needs to be reckoned, not just explained away with a very effective guilt trip that pre-trib believers are somehow not willing to suffer for Christ. ---------- Considered Posted by Eric Halleck on 12/15/2001, 10:27 pm , in reply to "Consider" Hi Dave, Elijah and Enoch are select members of the body of Christ that were taken out of the way. These two found a favor of Yahweh that multitudes of others haven't. We could speculate all day long as to why, but just because THEY found this favor doesn't necessarily lend credence to the fact that the "pre-1000 year reign time" church will be blessed accordingly. I mean, really, are we so pious to believe that we are worthy of being like them? The hour of temptation isn't necessarily the tribulation period, is it? Couldn't it also be a time where the earth is presented with the truth about who Yahshua is, and given the opportunity to see as the Apostles did, or reject as the majority did? Isn't sin, in its simplest form, an unwillingness to accept the truth? A hardened heart? Yahshua said "follow me". Where did his path lead? This is my largest obstacle in accepting a belief that I will be taken from the earth before the "flood comes out of the devils mouth", OR before the vials are opened and poured onto the earth. Yahshua endured unto the end, which he also calls us to do to be saved. Yahshua was made perect through his sufferings, so what makes us believe we are to get a "get out of temptation & tribulation" card is in the works for us? Isn't that where he went....to take on the devil one on one? To be kept from the hour of temptation. Wasn't Yahshua? Didn't he make those decisions that always please the Father? Wasn't he, spiritually speaking, given the weapons of his warfare to do exactly that, to be kept from the his hour? didn't he come through untouched, even though he was crucified? Victory doesn't come in saving this flesh, but allowing it to be crucified. This is the faith and patience of the saints...to know that the trials we endure will be rewarded, and justice exacted, not because we will it, but because Yahweh wills it. Our escape is in the blood of Christ. It isn't in saving these vile bodies which are doomed for death anyway. To "be worthy" to escape to me means to be worthy, by the blood of Yahshua, to escape the judgement, not the tribulation or hour of temptation. Moses and the children of Israel were faced with the hour temptation. The death angel flew over Egypt. Their response to their hour was a telling moment for them. Place the blood, or face the Word of God that stated the fact of what was coming. The ones who believed listened, believed, and were saved. Those who didn't, wept. Those who believed were given their Exodus, but not after enduring unto the end of the trial. If there is anything that cause me to see that "following Yahshua" in the last days are following the same path he did, it would be the repeated references to "giving their lives because of their testimony", being "beheaded for the word of God", etc. Even the two witnesses show that they must follow "unto the end". They die a violent death, but in the end, they are caught up...raptured (resurrected). In my limited view, I've come to accept that those who "fall asleep" in Yahshua are those who die naturally. Those who endure unto the end, they are killed because of their hope in the resurrection and their word of testimony to that truth. So, some may very well be taken out of the way, but death is still an imminent action in their "rapture". I agree. There is definitely something that needs to be reckoned with in view of the rapture as promoted by the church. I doubt either Elijah or Enoch saw their "rapture" coming beforehand, until the time. They did the work set before them out their fear and trembling. Because they found favor with Yahweh in being faithful and believing regardless of the consequences opened the door for their departure. Dare I say that this world and most believers can't even fathom that depth of commitment to the promises of Yahshuas coming Kingdom? It's coming, rapture or no rapture. It's coming, and their will be trials and tribulation unlike this world has experienced before. Trusting in the "lucky charm" belief that we won't be here isn't what Yahshua told us to be ready for.