Posted by JR on 1/6/2002, 6:47 pm

Setting the stage Posted by JR on 12/17/2001, 2:38 am , in reply to "Re: Huh? Will the real bride please stand up!" Before we get into the details of the chapter, I think it would be best to look at the setting of where all of this is taking place. Verse one starts out "A great sign appeared in heaven:"(NAS), and so does verse three "Then another sign appeared in heaven:"(NAS). So, the woman is in heaven, and the dragon is in heaven, and when she gives birth, it happens in heaven. The child is caught up to God and His throne... which is in heaven. As soon as the child is caught up to God and His throne, war breaks out in heaven. I hope that you can see where I am coming from here. Eph 6:12 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. NASU Now, I will concede that the woman is most likely the Church, not Christendom, but the true Church, so then let's take a look at the ManChild. The text should read more like "And she gave birth to a child; a man who is to rule with a rod of iron". In other words, she gives birth to a full grown man. This is a great wonder that is the sign. The man is Christ in you, the hope of glory! This man comes out as a warrior, clothed with the full armor of God, and when the angels of heaven see him, they rise up and fight for him and with him, and the devil is cast out of heaven... Rev 12:7-12 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." NKJV You see, by trying to figure out where the "rapture" takes place, you miss the whole point. When the woman gives birth to the ManChild, she then flees to the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, and THEY feed her for 1260 days. THEY are the ones who overcame the dragon! THEY are the ones who God uses to prepare the place in the wilderness. Rev 12:13-17 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. NKJV Eph 4:13-16 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. NIV ---------- Re: The woman in Rev 12 Posted by Steve B. on 12/17/2001, 8:07 am , in reply to "The woman in Rev 12" Thanks, Dave. For all of those who think that my motivation for posting here is to destroy everything the Chapel taught, I'd just like to say that the teaching on the book of Revelation is one of the things that I think the Chapel got pretty close to right. However, I now think that the manchild represents not a visibly separate group of believers but the true believers everywhere in the visible church, which is what the woman in Rev. 12 represents. It is not the overcomers' work to "come out" of the visible church any more than it is the baby's work to come out of the mother. I don't think a visible separation will take place, any more than we can visibly see the church as a woman wearing twelve stars. As you have noted, the book of Revelation gives us symbols to understand what is happening in the spiritual realm. Sincerely, Steve Born email: srborn@seanet.com Home page: http://www.seanet.com/~srborn/ ---------- Posted by JR on 12/15/2001, 10:04 am , in reply to "JR-Can't I Play Too" A.U., Fisrt of all, brother, I NEVER said that I believed that the woman in Rev. 12 was Satan's church! If I said anything that made you think that I thought that, please forgive me. As a matter of fact I have more than one witness to the fact that I have stated that I don't have ANY theory as to who the woman, manchild, or the remnant of her seed is. I DID say that according to Eph.4 that the church is ONE. This SHOULD be beyond dispute. Secondly, I am not a "verse" kind of man. I try to read the Bible without Chapter and Verse divisions so that I can understand what is written in the context of the subject being addressed. I am not looking for Mysteries, but this is how I approach the scriptures: I simply try to find what it is that I am supposed to do as a disciple of Yahshua, and put those things into practice. The biggest problem I have with such a doctrine that you propose is that it obscures the foundamental truth that the church, from Yahshua to those who remain till his coming, is ONE. Do you really wish to dispute the oneness of the body of Christ? The manchild doctrine that the Chapel held to (as far as I understand it), brings into the body of Christ a caste system, thus making a schism. Also, consider the "tribulation" of those who have gone before us. Were they raptured out, or did they "love not their lives unto death"? Consider the fact that it is through "tribulation" that we enter into the Kingdom of God. Consider the scripture that says that we will reign with Him, if we also suffer with him. There are MANY scriptures that state this truth, but most want to avoid that wich he called us to, which is to lose our lives for His sake and the Gospels sake. Judgement must first begin in the House of God. Lastly, we are to be watching for His coming. This is the hope of the church. We are to be as the wise virgins who were prepared to make it through the night. All of these things are stated very plainly throughout the scriptures. It is said several times in different places in scriptures that when he returns, EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM. Now, if I am wrong in what I believe, will you still recieve me as a brother? If you are right in your beliefs, and I simply just don't get it, does this make me any less of a disciple in your eyes? If I lack understanding, and have more questions than answers, does this make me a fool? Is it wrong for me to question those things that I appearently don't understand? Did I come to you as a teacher, or as one asking questions? If my questions offend you, who is the one that has the greatest problem? If our doctrines disagree, should that cause our mutual love for Christ in each other to diminish? I hope not. In Christ, JR ---------- Posted by Author Unknown on 12/15/2001, 10:40 am , in reply to "Re: JR-Can't I Play Too" Dear JR For the sake of love I will drop any disagreements we may have on what was or wasnÂ’t said that night. I did enjoy your company! I am sorry to cast a bad light on the evening-I really thought you believed that. You are my Brother. And your position of not having a firm view on the subject may show wisdom. May God Bless you. I am doing well. ---------- Thank you for being so gracious. Posted by JR on 12/16/2001, 12:17 am , in reply to "Re: JR-Can't I Play Too" A.U., Hey brother, I have never been afraid to voice my belief that the christian religion is not the church, so I can see how you arrived at the conclusion that you did. No harm done. We truly enjoyed the short time we got to spend with you, and came away having met another brother in the family of God. This was what I was after. I just wanted to know the Unknown Author. I was NOT disappointed in what I found in you. Your love for the Truth is evident to all who will take the time to get to know you. If we never see eye to eye on the manchild doctrine, let's not let the enemy use our differing views as a weapon against us. Our mutual love for Yahshua and for each other as brethren is greater than any doctrine. We are not ignorant of our enemy's devices. I look forward to the day that you won't need a bi-pap breathing device, and I will no longer need a wheelchair. It's hard to be whole when you are broken. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and hope that you will forgive me if I caused you any grief. Please remember that if I ask questions of you, I am not challenging you, I am just looking for an answer. May Yahweh give you the desire of your heart. JR