Posted by JR on 1/6/2002, 12:06 pm

The woman in Rev 12 Posted by Dave Kenady on 12/15/2001, 8:53 am “the woman in Revelation's 12th chapter must be Satan’s Church because Christ’s church is one.” ... based this on the scripture which reads, “There is one body”(Ephesians 4:4) Interesting thought, but this view ignores everything given in Rev 12 to indicate who is being spoken of. The woman is clothed with the sun moon under her feet on her head a crown of twleve stars It's very popular to see the woman as either Israel bringing forth Jesus or Mary bringing forth Jesus, but I've never heard it said the woman was Satan's church. Nor would any of the symbols fit. My position (and the position at the Chapel) was that this woman is the visible church in the earth from which comes the manchild (seen as the bride of Christ in other symbolism, the Shulamite (Song of Sol 6:13) a woman The church is often spoken of as a woman in the scriptures. Eph 5:24-33 - the church is seen as the bride of Christ. 2 Cor 11:2 - We are spoken of as betrothed to one husband, Christ, that we might be presented as a pure virgin. Romans 7:2-4 - Again, the church is spoken of as joined to Jesus as a woman is to her husband. Rev 19:7,8 - The bride of Christ clothes herself in fine linen which is the righteous acts of the saints. "clothed with the sun" a) What is the sun she is clothed with? We see in Malachi 4:2 that Jesus is prophesied of as the "sun of righteousness (that) will rise with healing in its wings". This was not simply speaking of a bright light, but speaks of the righteousness of Christ. He was not only to be the sun, but the sun of righteousness. b)We see this brightness displayed by Christ in Mtt 17:2. The sun of righteousness had risen. Also, Rev 1:16 speaks of Jesus' face. It "was like the sun, shining in its strength". c)The church is the one who has put on, or clothed herself with Christ. The righteousness of Christ has been imputed to her: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.(Galatians 3:27) "He made Him who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."(2 Cor 5:21) " 'Behold, the days are coming,' declares the Lord, 'when I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; and He will reign as king and act wisely and do justice and righteousness in the land.....And this is His name by which He will be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'" (Jer 23:5,6b) When God sees a believer in Jesus, He sees the righteousness of Christ. The scripture fittingly remarks that "all of you who were baptized into Christ HAVE CLOTHED YOURSELVES WITH CHRIST". (Gal 3:27) d)See also l Cor 1:30 Phil 3:8,9 Rev 6:11 Mtt 13:43 "and the moon under her feet" The moon in scripture is spoken of as the "lesser light" that governs the night, whereas the sun governs the day. Scripture also depicts the dependence of the moon to the sun. Is.30:26 and Eze.32:7 show that the moon simply follows the activity of the sun for the moon has no light of its own. It simply reflects the light of the sun. Here in Rev 12, the moon is shown as the foundation of the church. The woman is standing on the moon. This seems to speak of the Old Testament Law and prophets which the church is built upon. The Old Testament Law and prophets have no light of their own but reflect the "sun of righteousness" - Jesus Christ. In Jesus, the Old Testament comes to life and sheds forth the light of the Gospel and of God's plan for His entire creation. Take away Jesus and there is no story. Ephesians 2:20 witnesses to the fact that the church's foundation includes the apostles and prophets. "and on her head a crown of twelve stars" Stars speak of the ministers of the Gospel. -Rev 1:20 - the seven stars are the seven "angelos" of the seven churches. Angelos has been transliterated into English as "angels", but actually means "messenger". These seven stars are the seven pastors of the seven churches. -Dan 12:3 - Those who lead many to righteousness are likened to the stars. This speaks again of the ministers of God. -Gen 22:17 - It is not by accident that God said He would multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the heavens. Not only would they be numerous like the stars, but the stars would be established as a type of those who were Abraham's seed, the ministers of God. The number 12 speaks of the fullness of the Kingdom. It speaks of ALL of the ministers. There were 12 patriarchs, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles of the Lamb. This crown in the Greek speaks of a victor's wreath. Jesus has overcome the world. The church has access to victory over the world. Therefore she has given a victor's wreath. But I've never seen Satan depicted in these ways. And I'm not sure what Satan's church would be. ---------- Re: The woman in Rev 12 Something good came from this thread Posted by Author Unknown on 12/15/2001, 11:15 am , in reply to "The woman in Rev 12" Dave’s Study on the Woman in Revelation impressed me so much that I am honored [with Dave’s permission] to include it in the manuscript (Ride the Ark). It is more thorough than the material I had in the chapter entitled (The Seed from the Woman). It adds more weight to the concept of the woman being Christ’s Church. Thank You Dave for your contribution ---------- Huh? Will the real bride please stand up! Posted by JR on 12/15/2001, 11:16 pm , in reply to "The woman in Rev 12" Dear Dave, Please forgive me for my ignorance on these things, but your post gives more questions than answers. At first, you present the woman as the "visible church" and speak of HER as the bride of Christ: "a woman The church is often spoken of as a woman in the scriptures. Eph 5:24-33 - the church is seen as the bride of Christ. 2 Cor 11:2 - We are spoken of as betrothed to one husband, Christ, that we might be presented as a pure virgin. Romans 7:2-4 - Again, the church is spoken of as joined to Jesus as a woman is to her husband. Rev 19:7,8 - The bride of Christ clothes herself in fine linen which is the righteous acts of the saints." When in the sentence before you called the manchild the bride of Christ: My position (and the position at the Chapel) was that this woman is the visible church in the earth from which comes the manchild (seen as the bride of Christ in other symbolism, the Shulamite (Song of Sol 6:13) So, Christ has TWO brides, the woman clothed with the sun, and her "manchild"??? Can you see why I am having a hard time understanding this doctrine? ---------- Posted by Dave Kenady on 12/16/2001, 11:05 am , in reply to "Huh? Will the real bride please stand up!" Sorry. You've been a victim of my sloppy writing. I haven't really seriously considered these things for many years, so I'm a little rusty. Let me put it this way: The Bible shows us what God has in mind for us by using earthly pictures. God uses the picture of a husband and wife to show the relationship of His called out ones to Jesus. Jesus is pictured as the bridegroom, the church as the bride. Yet, in other pictures, it seems that THE bride of Christ does not necessarily include all those who name the name of Jesus. The 10 virgins, only 5 of whom are ready, the Shulamite's relationship to Solomon in comparison to the other wives, the manchild in Rev 12 who is caught up to God and to His throne, yet the woman is not, Jesus' own words that one will be taken and one left. These are all pictures of the same thing from a different perspective. I didn't mean to leave the impression there are 2 brides, but to show that the church is seen as a woman in scripure. A bride is a woman, right. But Rev 12 shows that there is a deeper truth in that there is one within the womb of the woman who will be the manchild, the REAL bride who made herself ready (Rev 19:7). There were those who were not ready, as pictured in the parable of the 10 virgins. Only 5 were ready. (Mtt 25:1-13) "There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number. My dove, my undefiled is [but] one; she [is] the [only] one of her mother, she [is] the choice [one] of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; [yea], the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." (Song of Solomon 6:8-9) It is this one whom he says, "My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away." (Song of Solomon 2:10) I'll confess that many years ago, before the collapse of the Chapel, I realized that I could not be dogmatic about a lot of this because so much of the doctrine is based on symbolism. But the question still remains: what do the symbols mean? I hope that this discussion will not ignore them.