Posted by Matt Geib/Richard E./JR, et al on 1/6/2002, 11:04 am

The ManChild Company Posted by Matt Geib on 11/27/2001, 7:40 am Hello Folks I have been reviewing my tape archive of late & came across a Camp Meeting message from the Fall of 1976 by Russel Mackenzie"From a Child to A Manchild". After listening a couple times & reflecting I was wondering where everyone "was at" on this topic after 25+ years. Are you still a believer? Do you think this was just etherial, pie-in-the-sky, teaching shoe-horned in to fit one mans'(dbs') vain imagination with a couple of scriptures pulled out of context? I have "wrestled" many times over the years with the whole topic of eschatology.At one time I considered myself pretty well "up to speed" on the topic. The assembly I now attend (should say the Pastor) believes the Church will go thru the great tribulation.....this may look good in view of such passages as in Eph. that say the Church will be "w/out spot or wrinkle" & yet I can not totally accept this; on the other hand I do not see how the whole church will be "raptured out" when it is in such a carnal state. Still, I guess (& I am reflecting, still as I write this) after all these years I believe the scriptures bare out a truth of a Last-Day, Over Coming group of Believers who will minister in the Power of God as this world has yet seen. I do wonder so many, many times about all these things & at times it makes me sad because I wonder are we any nearer today to this coming about?--- That is, "That Nation that will be Born in a Day".....I can hear in my mind Russ, speaking so powerfully that we were now (9/76) in the prophetic 6th day when that "Man" would be born......& yet now we are in the "7th" day & to me, that "birthing" has just not happened....I am crying out "Lord, if this is really true, just where is it?!, or how much longer till it occurs?" Reflecting back on my CC. days, I realized when we left in 86' I "jettsioned" so many beliefs & opinions I held because I was so hurt & disillusioned (I guess when Jesus died the Apostles Must have felt this way as well) + so much doctrine that was held at CC was so very steeped in spiritual pride it made me sick!!!! & I believe the MC doctrine led the way in this.....Oh yes, we were going to be "those Interpeters of 1 among 1000" who were going to revolutionize the world......WOW how wrong & naive we all were!........Still 25 years later This truth is in my heart & I just can't cast it off, but I believe it will look a lot different (when it comes about) then what many of us had imagined for this company of Saints will be the embodiement of true Humility, that even now I can not quite relate to. Certainly after all these years there must be "a surer word" than what I heard years ago from a brother on this topic" Well, I am not Pre-Trib or Post-Trib, I am Pan-Trib....I believe it will all Pan out in the end" Let me know your thoughts!! Matt ---------- Posted by Tom Ashley Young on 11/27/2001, 9:25 am , in reply to "The ManChild Company" I believe the pan trib position is a dangerous one - you need to know what you believe, no matter whether CCBTC taught "it" or not. In other words, if you hold a CCBTC position, then you hold it because you have personally come to the settled conclusion that it is the Truth. There cannot be any coasting on another's position or just hoping you'll be ready for the endtime, without adequate preparation. The manchild of Revelation 12 is clearly not Jesus Christ - it does not fit - Revelation 2:27 and Revelation 12:11 identify who "he"is. What ministry "he" will have is discussing from silence, for scripture is silent on it. However, 2Thes.2:7 shows "he" has a purpose before the 2nd revealing of the anti-christ. Having said that, yes, it is easy to steep oneself in spiritual pride by thinking me be the "he"! I personally believe that those who are thus inclined will not be part of the "he," and I include myself among the potential non-"he"s. But just because spiritual pride rocked the teachings of the "he," does not make it any less true. It is true because the Bible says it is true. The pathway entrance is humility. If we keep that intact while remaining teachable there is still room in the "he" for all of us. Link: http://www.infopost.com/ItemDescription.asp?navtyp=SRH&ItemI=79666 ---------- Posted by Matt on 11/27/2001, 11:49 am , in reply to "Re: The ManChild Company" Tom, I enjoyed your comments. Yes, I believe it is essential for Christians to be prepared & know what they believe on this subject as well. Just as you have stated, humility is key in being prepared, as Jesus said "The 1st shall be last & the last shall be 1st" Matt ---------- Re: Matt, I believe you know my veiw on the subject Posted by Author Unknown on 11/27/2001, 11:19 am , in reply to "Re: The ManChild Company" As many of you know, I had a spiritual experience in October of 1995 when an invisible hand was placed upon my head and I recieved knowledge on this very subject. Since then I have penned a book on this subject clearly spelling out the answer to Matt's question. I am somewhat curious as to whether some of the people on this board find the understanding Christ gave me to be credible? ---------- Posted by Matt Geib on 11/27/2001, 11:41 am , in reply to "Re: Matt, I believe you know my veiw on the subject" AU For the sake of further good-spirited discussion why don't you hi-lite some of your main thots on the subject. Matt ---------- Posted by Author Unknown on 11/27/2001, 1:17 pm , in reply to "Re: Matt, I believe you know my veiw on the subject" Dear Brother Matt: I like how you phrased your question to me, “…why don’t you high-lite some of your main thots on the subject.” My response is, after penning over 57,000 words and going into a detailed systematic study of this man-child doctrine, I feel that posting some of my “main thots” may be somewhat inadequate proof for people to consider? Why not just read the book, I have given a copy away free to every one that asked. I have also posted the entire book on this message board, except for the final chapter, one chapter at a time over the last two years. So if any one was interested they would know my main thots. However, I have a question for those among us who still hold steadfastly to the Chapel’s interpretation of Revelation as spelled out in (Apocalypse File 31). In this Chapel file the Rapture of the Church occurs before any seals are opened, which according to Chapel doctrine is several years before Revelation’s last trumpet. My question is: does the last trumpet of I Corinthians 15:52 that the Chapel taught is a Rapture proof-text occur before the last trumpet in Revelation? In other words should I understand that the last trumpet in Revelation will be preceded by a last trumpet of a different order? And, does this understanding hold up to sound Biblical hermeneutics? ---------- Re: Come on give us a nutshell in your words, AU Posted by Keith on 11/27/2001, 9:20 pm , in reply to "Re: Matt, I believe you know my veiw on the subject" I want to contemplate this issue but I don't want to read 57,000 words (to be honest). I tend to lean with Matt, at least in heart, I wonder to what extent CC took this doctrine in a wrong direction, but I still wonder (and hope) that aspects of it are true. My hope is contained in His goodness and in His greatness and what He can do in his people, maybe even in a few of us lame ones. "The manifestation of the sons of God"? The moving of His Spirit through His people in humble honest reality, 70 times 7 in a day forgiveness and compassion. This all may play out probably vastly different than I once imagined but it will be right and it will be good. I have no definite answers on this subject and I don't care that I don't but I like to hear what others may believe. ---------- Re: Come on AU. Ok Keith Posted by Author Unknown on 11/28/2001, 12:15 am , in reply to "Re: Come on give us a nutshell in you words AU" I believe that the Flood was a model of the Rapture. Noah was above the earth for 40 days and he stayed in the ark for another week after the flood ended. So a 7 week timeframe would fit well as a model. Also, there is a 7-week time-frame between two of the feast days and the typology in this also fits. Plus the “hour” of trial mentioned in Revelation is a word that means as a blink of an eye. Does this word's meaning lean towards a seven year time frame better than one of a shorter duration? But the most important point I can make is that of a 7th Trumpet Rapture, and this is what Christ showed me when I was struggling with how to proceed with the book. I saw that we will be caught up when the 7th angel begins to sound his trumpet. See Revelation 10:7. Now all this may sound lame if you think that Revelation's plagues are literal. And this I believe is what makes my work unique: I have never read a book that explains the meaning of Revelation's plagues like (Ride the Ark) does. And of course, I think my understanding has merit. Because it came about through much prayer and Bible study and it makes more sense to me than say Hal Lindsey's understanding of the plagues. I believe in a nut shell that we shall be caught up before the Lamb's wrath, which is the Bowl Judgments.