Posted by Keith, et al on 12/29/2001, 11:38 pm

Posted by Keith on 11/6/2001, 6:06 am Isaiah 53 may have been the Scripture I was thinking of concerning what Jesus' knowledge may have been in his decision to die for us. If you read all of Is 53 not just 53:10, there is a lot of room for speculation on what Jesus may went through and what his decision to die for us may have encompassed. I've never felt certain as to what extent Jesus suffered or what his actual knowledge was when he said "not my will but Thine be done", but again I do wonder and that is fueled by descriptions in the Bible. verse 8-9 says, 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. What did the following sentence point to? "for he was cut off out of the land of the living:" Was it just physical death or did it go beyond that? Concerning revelations, I've had many revelations when reading the Bible or listening to a sermon, to me this simply meant truth was revealed to me personally, not necessarily some new biblical knowledge that nobody has known. We don't know everything that every Christian or group of Christians have had knowledge of (biblical truth) over the last 2000 years. Even if something is new to us and not believed by the majority of Christians that doesn't mean it is anything new under the sun. ---------- Ok So What's My Problem? Posted by Author Unknown on 11/6/2001, 8:37 am , in reply to "Answer to AU on Is 53 and a thought on personal revelations" This is a subject that I do not enjoy talking about among other Chapelites because I usually get a blot when discussing it. I don’t know of anyone who likes being disdained. Yet even if I am pushing against the wind on this issue I have decided to express why this doctrine has troubled me so much. The teaching we are addressing here is that Jesus thought he was going to burn in Hell for eternity as the atonement for the sins of mankind. Now the alleged reason he thought this is because he lost revelation as did John the Baptist. We have an example of this with John. When John was cast into prison he asked one of Christ’s disciples if he should look for another. Yet earlier John was sure Jesus was the Messiah. So we do have an example of a man who was filled with the spirit from the womb like Jesus losing faith in something he had faith in before. I for one could see how John could have been a bit confused. Looking into the scriptures concerning the Messiah it may have appeared to John that the Messiah would have taken the throne quickly, rather than preaching for over three years. Yet Jesus knew he was going to the cross. Jesus had a greater understanding of his ministry. John may have never been given the kind of details that God gave to Jesus Christ? Jesus told his disciples he was going to be betrayed, put to death and then raised from the dead three days later, see Matthew 28:18. Can we make the reasonable assumption that Christ knew what he was talking about when he said this? Can we also make the reasonable assumption that the Father had revealed this knowledge to him? If not then what Jesus are we speaking of? Here is my problem? 1. I believe that Jesus was a man of Faith. 2. I believe that Jesus believed in the promise the Father gave him, see John 17. 3. I can’t see Jesus doubting the calling that he once knew was true. 4. I have trouble believing that Jesus may have thought God lied to him. 5. If Jesus really thought God was doublecrossing him by leading him to understand he would be raised from the dead but then leaving him in hell wouldn’t that be a sin on Christ's part? 6. On top of that Jesus said that the Scriptures were true—and there is a scripture that reads, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell” Psalms 16: 10. Is it possible that Jesus was not aware of this verse? Again what Jesus are we speaking of? Yes he sweated great drops of blood in the Garden, but does that prove he thought he was going to the lake of fire? Isn’t the suffering he went through with the sin of mankind placed upon him enough to make him sweat blood? I think it was. ---------- Posted by Keith on 11/6/2001, 10:21 am , in reply to "Ok So What's My Problem?" Very good points and you could very well be right, there are Scriptures that put a wrench into this. Differing opinions on this subject are not that big of a deal to me. I do wonder what Jesus was thinking when he said "My God My God why hast thou forsaken me", in being separated from God at this instance was Jesus put into a place of just not knowing for sure what was going to happen or how everything would end up? If you are right I do not think that lessens things in any way, we just don't know what Jesus went through, we see through a glass darkly. --------- If I'm Going To Make A Fool Of Myself Posted by Author Unknown on 11/6/2001, 11:48 am , in reply to "Re: Ok So What's My Problem?" One day I was thinking about the concept that Jesus may have thought he was going to spend eternity in the lake of fire for the sins of mankind. So I got out my Bible and read the four gospel accounts of Christ from the time he was about to be betrayed, to his death on the cross. I wrote out the words of Christ during this time-frame and I noticed that before and during his crucifixion Christ said many things that made it clear he was going to be raised again. He even said that in the meantime he was going to Paradise. So I wondered, at what time could he have possibly thought he was going to the lake of fire, and the answer was in the Garden. So let’s think for a moment about what the last thing Jesus Christ said before he went to the Garden, “…but after I am risen again, I will go before you in Galilee…” Matthew 26:31-33. We know that going into the Garden he was still speaking of his resurrection. And we know from what he said to the thief on the cross that he was sure he was headed to Paradise. I have yet to find a scripture that indicates Jesus may have had this understanding he was going to the Lake of Fire. I think back of Job and how he said, “though he slay me yet will I trust in him” (Job 13:15) and this is a typological depiction of Christ’s trust in God. Job went on to say in the next verse, “He shall be my salvation,” speaking of God. But my colleagues ask that I accept that the type should be broken, let me explain: We know Jesus trusted in God when he said “thy will be done,” but if Jesus thought that God’s will was for him to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, what kind of trust is that? Would a trustworthy God send a sinless obedient man to the Lake of Fire? Wouldn’t that depict a God that couldn’t be trusted? One more thing, in these arguments with other Chapelites it has been said, other men have suffered in death more than Jesus, so what makes his death so special if it were merely a death of the body? The answer is, 1. Jesus lived a sinless life, and then allowed himself to be put to death for our sins, no other man did that! 2. His blood atonement is all that God required. 3. That’s good enough for me ---------- Posted by Keith on 11/6/2001, 2:23 pm , in reply to "If I'm Going To Make A Fool Of Myself" Again you may be right and we may have tried to read too much into it, I have thought about many of those Scriptures, such as on the cross when Jesus said "Today you will be with me in paradise". Even still what does taking on the sins of the world mean? Could that have brought confusion or darkness to Jesus' mind, even if it was for a short time? I don't know that I believe he had eternity in hell in mind in his initial decision but he may have been in darkness at some point with perhaps some uncertainty, which was part of what his sacrifice entailed. Again as I stated this is just speculation on my part, I don't have any desire to try and prove anything on this subject, I will continue to speculate and discuss though. --------- Posted by Author Unknown on 11/6/2001, 2:52 pm , in reply to "I'm Going To Make A Fool Of Myself Again" Dear Brother Keith, It is generally believed that the sins of man were placed on Christ at the time God’s Spirit withdrew from him, right before he died. That would be surreal indeed. God may have not let Jesus know that was going to happen? We can assume that Jesus was sincere when he cried out, “Father why hast thou forsaken me?” But again, if Jesus thought he was going to the lake of fire wouldn’t he expect to be separated from the Father’s presence? Do we not understand that in the second death men are without the presence of God? I knew that before I even believed in Jesus when I was taken to Hell. Is it possible A.U. has a greater understanding than Jesus Christ on any given subject—ABSOLUTELY NOT!