Posted by SB on 12/29/2001, 11:17 pm

Visions versus faith Posted by Steve B. on 11/7/2001, 8:25 am , in reply to "Quote by Warnock" Lanny, I say this respectfully, but I can't help but regard your posting as an eloquent yet deceptive plea for a subjective religion that is based on personal experiences, not on the things revealed in the New Testament by the Spirit of God. It seems to me that you are disregarding the clear Word of God for a pseudo-spiritual fantasy derived largely from your own imagination instead of the truth revealed through the scriptures. This was exactly what got us into trouble at the Chapel and led not only to the destruction of the church but to the destruction of the faith of many individuals. I would have no trouble, if you and I were in the same room, with looking you in the eye and saying, with love, it's all a load of garbage, brother. That is one lesson that I get from my Chapel experience. One of the elders should have stood up right of the middle of a Sunday morning at the Chapel in about 1985 and said that at the Chapel. No one need fear that they are being legalistic if they reject emotional appeals to fanaticism like yours in favor of a clear-eyed grasp of what the scriptures actually say. Reading and understanding the scriptures is much closer to being in the spirit than is "experiencing the scriptures." Remember what Paul said in his letter to the Colossians: Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. [Col 2:18-19 NIV] The key point for us ex-Chapelites to notice is that the false teacher who was seducing the Colossians was basing his message on visions he had seen. Similarly, you are basing your message on an experience you have had in a trance-like state. Speaking only for myself, I say "no thank you." Paul himself had no trouble with labeling a person who was basing his theology on visions and experiences as "unspiritual" and "puffed up with idle notions." Your posting sounds to me too much like the appeals Don was making in the final chapters of the Chapel's tragic history. Let me close with one more word from the scriptures, one that I think speaks clearly enough on its own without spiritual experiences being required of the reader: ...the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. [1 Tim 1:5-7 NAS] Sincerely, Steve --------- further Posted by lanny on 11/8/2001, 12:14 pm , in reply to "Visions versus faith" "How sweet are Thy words to my taste! Yes, sweeter than honey to my mouth." Ps 119:103 I contend that more than his mind was involved in this. This is to be experienced. This is to be felt. Can we say this? I believe that God wants us to be able to say this. "I rejoice at Thy word, as one who finds great spoil." It is like a treasure hunt. Insights, connecting one passage with another, typology, daily bread, feeding on truth, breathing it in, "the engrafted word..." that is, it becoming a part of you.... Communing with the author of the Book while reading it.... For example: Gen 17:1" I am God almighty, walk before Me and be thou perfect." I had that verse thundering in my soul, mind, heart, being for several months. It was as though I was the one being spoken to. The first four words made my bones rattle. It was loud as thunder. Why was this happening? I believe that God wants every one of us to experience the reality of His truth in a deeper way that has an impact upon us which in turn allows us to more impact those around us. I certainly believe that "no scripture is of private interpretation." Whatever insights I may find are available to all. However, fear, insecurity, doctrinal rigidity and lack of faith can certainly keep one from what God is doing. I also believe many Christains have made their doctrine an idol. They have security in having a neat ordered theology instead of security in God and a trust in wherever God leads them. There is a difference between having security in God's word and having security in "my" interpretation of God's word. Lanny ---------- Posted by Steve B. on 11/8/2001, 2:46 pm , in reply to "further" Lanny, You write However, fear, insecurity, doctrinal rigidity and lack of faith can certainly keep one from what God is doing. This has some hidden assumptions in it, but if these are clarified I can perhaps fully agree with it. Specifically, in some people's minds these words might possibly mean "I've had an experience. I can see it in God's Word and it was so deep and powerful that it has to be from God. Everyone else needs to have this experience, too. In fact, many other people have had this experience. It is what God is doing today. If some people don't want it, or disagree that it is from God, it means that fear, insecurity, doctrinal rigidity, and lack of faith are the only reasons they are holding back. It also means they are not moving with God." If that is what you are saying, then I emphatically disagree. If, however, you mean only that the things you list often hinder us from fully walking with the Lord, then I agree with you. But I would have to add that mistaken notions of what God is doing (based on powerful personal experiences) can also hinder our walk with the Lord and lead us astray. You also write I also believe many Christians have made their doctrine an idol. They have security in having a neat ordered theology instead of security in God and a trust in wherever God leads them. There is a difference between having security in God's word and having security in "my" interpretation of God's word. Again, I agree if you also agree to this statement: I also believe many Christians have made their experience an idol. They have security in emotionally gratifying experiences, instead of security in God and a trust in God, whether they ever experience anything or not. There is a difference between having security in God's word and having security in personal emotional experiences based on God's word. Agreed? Sincerely, Steve ---------- Re: I liked that post Lanny Posted by Keith on 11/7/2001, 10:08 am , in reply to "Quote by Warnock" Thank you Lanny, that was great. Sometimes I will keep one of my bookmarks at a chapter or a few verses that have impacted me and read them again and again over time. It really is a living word in that each word can really stand out and can be profoundly impacting. I mentioned Isaiah 53 in an above post which I hadn't read in some time, wow, that's a chapter in the Bible that I could spend a considerable amount of time reading and contemplating. As I stated above, revelation that I may receive from the Bible is simply truth being revealed, often in an impacting or profound way, which can include what a minister or another Christian may bring. This could be something somewhat common such as being born again or something a little more veiled. Actually sometimes what we think we understand or what we think is straightforward may be veiled to some extent and the depth of what is actually being conveyed or another angle of understanding may be revealed at some point. The living burning word of God has been this way for me since I've been filled with the Holy Spirit. Whether the revelation is new or old doesn't matter, the truth is the truth and it will eventually prevail and be brought to light. I couldn't even imagine assuming we have everything figured out now or close to it. ---------- Re: Quote by Warnock....Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle Posted by Matt Geib on 11/7/2001, 1:05 pm , in reply to "Quote by Warnock" Hello Folks, I really appreciate the chance to discuss these issues & see everyones various views. I have been wrestling with these ideas on inspiration,illumination & revelation these past several years & find clear-cut answers hard to come by. As Lanny has said already, the Longer he has walked with the Lord the more he finds he does not understand, I can truly relate to that Both Steve & Lanny make good points & express their views well. As Lanny has stated "The Spirit will guide us into all truth." I fully agree with this, the Bible is a Spiritual Book & we must have the illumination of God's Spirit to understand it....I believe in Romans it states "the Letter without the Spirit brings death". We can not "Rightly divide" the Truth of God's word unless we are led by Him. On the other hand I can see some of what Steve is saying as well. For one to believe that there are brand new, never before seen revelations in scripture to be taught & brought forth by Last day Prophets of God....Well I am sorry I have a problem with that. I believe God's Truth (The Bible) has contained the same truth all along & we are just "discovering" what has already been there, I guess for that reason I prefer the word "Illumination" not "Revelation". To me Revelation infers something totally new, whereas, Illumination means bringing to light something that has always been there & discovering it. Perhaps then, the truth lies somewhere between the views Lanny & Steve have expressed. Just my 2 cents worth Matt