Posted by DK on 12/27/2001, 10:21 pm

My response... Posted by Steve B. on 11/5/2001, 9:18 am , in reply to "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" Dave, If that is exactly the way that Don taught it, then I would not have too many reservations about the teaching. However, I remember more ambiguity in the way he stated things, especially when it was considered in combination with the rest of his teaching, and that is why I was concerned already at that time. Further, even your statement of it brings up the things about which I have reservations, but in a more indirect form: You imply that the queston is whether or not Jesus “lives by” his conscience. That is something different than the question of whether or not Jesus had a conscience. As I remember it, the title of the Sunday school lesson in which Don gave this teaching was “Did Jesus Have a Conscience?” But because Jesus himself was capable of living in oneness with the Father in a way of which we are not capable does not mean that he lacked a conscience or that he was not guided by conscience as well as by direct knowledge of God's will. It seems more likely to me that Jesus' conscience was totally in harmony with God's will. Taking the step of saying he was not guided by conscience at all but was guided only by direct, continuous knowledge of God's will is to go beyond what the scriptures say. This is one of those "middle shelf" things that, in my opinion, the Chapel liked to unobtrusively move off the middle shelf onto the table. In more formal theological terms, this is dabbling in speculative doctrine. There is a similar fuzziness in the statement that God's plan was “supposed to be” for us to live by “everything that proceeds from God.” But that is still His plan. In the context in which Jesus speaks this phrase, "things which proceed from God" refer to the scriptures, from which Jesus has been quoting to counter Satan's claims about what was permissible for Jesus to do. To claim that the picture of man's fall—of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil—is a picture of man taking on a conscience, and thereby losing some kind of more direct knowledge of God's will (instead of only unbroken fellowship), is also making an assumption that is not explicitly stated in the scriptures. This is again speculation passing as doctrine. There is also something that is not found in your posting, but which I think existed at the Chapel nevertheless: there was a tendency to take things which were said to be true only of man's final state, or only of Jesus, and to apply them to man's present state right now, at least for those that are perfectly moving with God. Even though Don may have explicitly said it is not possible for man to live without a conscience in this present age, the expectation that we should attain to be like Jesus in everything naturally suggested to many at the Chapel that the higer way was to try to live in unbroken fellowship with God and dispense with things like a conscience and guidance by the scriptures (which, as we have seen even in this thread, is equated with living by the “dead letter of the law.”) I know for a fact that I ran into people at the Chapel who believed that, and I think it was because of the ambiguity about man's position in relation to Jesus that was inherent in Don's teaching. This is one of the things that I think contributed to our susceptibility to the "spiritual connections" doctrine that so grievously misrepresented the nature of God's love, and how it was supposed to be manifest among His people. Sincerely, Steve ---------- a thought Posted by lanny on 11/11/2001, 5:28 pm , in reply to "My response..." I think dave has captured it quite well. I do remember DB saying that it was an attempt to answer certain questions not a final doctrinal thesis. In addition, following the Spirit of God as Christ did does not in any way depreciate the scriptures. Christ is Himself an expert in the Scriptures and makes reference to many passages. He also says He came to fulfill the Scriptures and He used the Scriptures to defeat satan. In fact, following the Spirit of God brings one in harmony with the Scriptures. lanny ---------- My recollection Posted by Gordy on 11/5/2001, 3:04 pm , in reply to "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" I recall Don speaking about this numerous times. He gave several reasons for his conclusion that Jesus didn't have a conscience. I recall him saying that this would explain why he didn't sin while he was very young. In other words, he wasn't born with a fallen nature. That is probably a more descriptive terminology than "without a conscience". I also recall Don saying several times that he wasn't dogmatic on this point but was only attempting to answer questions he and others had about the reason(s) Christ never sinned. He said his conclusion did fit the scenario in consideration. So, before heaping condemnation on Don for weird doctrine, at least in this case, in all fairness he said he wasn't dogmatic and wasn't teaching it as proven doctrine but only speculation based on sound reasoning. Gordy ---------- A compliment.... well, maybe not Posted by Dave Kenady on 11/4/2001, 9:37 pm , in reply to "Re: My thoughts on Don's Awesome Extrabiblical Prattel " I was going to compliment you on having a similar gift to Don's in your ability to teach in a way that is easily understood and conducive to "getting the revelation" as one studies --- but it sounds like you probably wouldn't take it as a compliment. One other teaching I had the same bad gut reaction was the teaching that, "Jesus understood he was going to Hell for our sins, bearing the massive burden of all of the sins of mankind for eternity." Suffering far more in Hell than any other being! I have looked in the Gospels, and I have trouble understanding at what time he was so sure that he was bound for Hell? It doesn't sound to me like you got Don's position right. As I recall, Don believed that Jesus may have been willing to give up His own eternal life with His Father in order to pay for the sins of the world, since the wages of sin is death; that is separation from God. Otherwise, Jesus was just another man dying for others -- a noble gesture, but no more than what our boys in Normandy did. His case does not appear to be as strong as I once thought, because he used to use Heb 5:7 as a proof text. But Heb 5:7 seems to be saying that Jesus was a God fearing man, not that Jesus feared death (i.e. eternal death). But, hey, it is worth considering. It certainly isn't worth lampooning. One of the things I liked about Don was his willingness to think outside the box. ---------- Re: A compliment.... well, I'll take it Posted by Author Unknown on 11/5/2001, 1:23 am , in reply to "A compliment.... well, maybe not" Thank You Dave, Maybe I was a litle harsh when I penned that last post. I’m not mad at Don for having a revelation that may or not be biblical. What upsets me is that I have suffered mocking from other Chapelites because of this very subject. I was once driven off a work crew because I failed to accept this teaching. If one of those men had a gun at the time they would have probably shot me. And you are correct Dave, the sole scripture used to support Don’s argument was found in Hebrews speaking about “Jesus being heard in what he feared.” I refuse to base a doctrine on one single hard to understand scripture, especially when there are clear scriptures indicating a different understanding. What I like about this board is that I finally get a chance to throw some ideas out and see what my colleges think of them. I may be wrong about some things, like Jesus having a conscience or not? At least we can discuss these things here without getting shot! ---------- Posted by Keith on 11/5/2001, 5:27 am , in reply to "Re: A compliment.... well, I'll take it" The Hebrews scripture wasn't the sole Scripture. There is a Scripture in the OT, Psalms or Isaiah, I can't remember. It wasn't necessarily proof but it did open the door for speculation. I'll see if I can find it later. I keep speculation in the back of my mind on a lot of things, nothing to prove, just things to wonder about. I still am certain there is a lot we don't understand or are aware of. The one thing I want to do is keep somewhat of an open mind to reasonable conclusions in the Bible, as we get older we get so set in what we believe, I haven't liked seeing that in people. ---------- Posted by Author Unknown on 11/5/2001, 6:29 am , in reply to "Re: A compliment.... well, I'll take it" Dear Brother Keith, I believe the scripture you are thinking of may be, "when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin" Isaiah 53:10 KJV. I do not remember this being used in the sermon I heard, however, that was such a long time ago. I think I need to pray that I might forgive Don about some things. I do still have some bitterness in my heart toward him and it shows in my postings. I'm sorry about this. As one man once said my slip is showing