Posted by DK on 12/27/2001, 10:18 pm

Posted by Chris W on 11/4/2001, 1:39 pm , in reply to "My thoughts on this" Steve, what would have been the significance in teaching that Jesus didn't have a conscience? I don't remember this, and I'm intrigued by it. ------------ Posted by Steve B. on 11/4/2001, 3:00 pm , in reply to "Re: My thoughts on this" Chris, You know, I do not remember it too well myself. I think it had something to do with Jesus not needing a conscience because he was constantly walking in the Spirit, in the fellowship of the Father. The idea that some people seemed to get from it (I'm not sure if this is what Don intended or not), is that if we were really walking in the Spirit, we could more or less dispense with the conventional knowledge of right and wrong and instead operate directly from what God was telling us to do, even if it might at first deviate from what seemed right to us. If I recall correctly, this was also tied into the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" vs. "tree of life" teaching that I ran into a few times at the Chapel -- I can't remember if it was ever explicitly taught. Going by one's conscience was said to be "eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" while the higher way was "eating from the tree of life:" being so constantlyn in communion with God that one did not need the knowledge of good and evil. Maybe others can fill in more details, but this is what I remember. Sincerely, Steve ---------- Re: My thoughts on Don's Awesome Extrabiblical Prattel Posted by Author Unknown on 11/4/2001, 3:28 pm , in reply to "Re: My thoughts on this" I remember the first time I heard Don preach a sermon on the alledged subject that Jesus did not have a concience. I was shocked. I am not saying it's not true. How would I know? What I am saying was that my gut reaction felt something was wrong with the teaching. I had trouble undestanding how he was tempted in all things like us without a concience until Don brought the hard scriptural evidence! NOT! One other teaching I had the same bad gut reaction was the teaching that, "Jesus understood he was going to Hell for our sins, bearing the massive burden of all of the sins of mankind for eternity." Suffering far more in Hell than any other being! I have looked in the Gospels, and I have trouble understanding at what time he was so sure that he was bound for Hell? Was it when he said to the theif, "today you will be with me in Paradise?" One more question: why would he have been so shocked when the Father withdrawn his Spirit from him on the cross? Someone going to Hell would excpect this wouldn't they? Again, I cannot disprove this teaching! Nor would I want to! Because I would get a BLOT from many on this board! Don's words are often more realiable than my gut reactions or my poor understanding of Scripture. In all things I have learned to bow to Don's greater understanding. But I still cringe at some of his conclusions! My mind is weak... ---------- Posted by Chris W on 11/4/2001, 4:47 pm , in reply to "Re: My thoughts on Don's Awesome Extrabiblical Prattel " I remember Don presenting himself as knowledgeable and confident in the way he brought forth his teachings. This was one of his greatest strengths and the reason many of us were convinced he was a good leader. In order to prove any point, he would often bring a rebuttal and refute it, thereby eliminating a lot of the doubt his listeners may have had on any given topic. The best example I can think of right this moment is his teaching on abortion. He claimed that those souls would automatically go to heaven. Because of the fallen world and decaying families, there was a risk that a soul born into a poor situation might make wrong decisions and end up in hell. In that regard, he argued, abortion was good. The idea of Jesus not having, or not even needing a conscience leaves me uncomfortable. I thought our conscience helped us to choose between right and wrong. If Jesus was fully human, wouldnÂ’t He need this? Did He have a choice to sin or not? I guess this question would have to be answered first. Then, perhaps we could pin down exactly why Don taught this. I really don't think we even need to go down the road of discussing walking in the spirit vs. eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If it is possible to eliminate the need for a conscience sometime in our individual human lives, it wouldn't happen for a very long time; therefore, we NEED a conscience to, at the very least, get us started! Another thought...In the case of abortion, I believe Don missed the big picture. While itÂ’s good that millions of souls will end up in heaven, itÂ’s bad that man has taken one of GodÂ’s greatest gifts and miracles and made a mockery of it. ItÂ’s bad that sexual immorality is rampant and that a majority of abortions are for the sake of convenience. Is there a potential big-picture mockery against God by saying that Jesus didnÂ’t have a conscience? ---------- Tree of the knowledge of good and evil Posted by Dave Kenady on 11/4/2001, 5:10 pm I never heard it said that we should aspire to walk by the tree of life vs the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In fact, I clearly understood that sinful man had no real choice but to live by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, our conscience. But that this was not always the way it was or should have been. And it wasn't so for Jesus. Adam and Eve were specifically told "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." God's plan was supposed to be for man to live by everything that proceeds from God. Yet, the choice to take from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil changed everything. Before that time, knowing good and evil was not necessary, nor even desired for us by God. But Adam and Eve's choice made it so, "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself." God asked the obvious question, "Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" And so man has lived by this knowledge of good and evil ever since. And what is this sense that man has that gives him the knowledge of good and evil? What is it that even little ones know if they have been good or bad? It is their conscience. This knowledge of good and evil is what we call our conscience. And though it is necessary now in the absence of that fellowship with God that Adam had, it is not that which God wanted from the beginning. And concerning Jesus, He is the last Adam, the second man from heaven, the One with unbroken fellowship with God who said God ALWAYS hears Him when He speaks. Jesus has fellowship with God as Adam was supposed to, living by everything that proceeds from God rather than the knowledge of good and evil. We live by our conscience in our state of sin and broken fellowship with God, but Jesus does not. And in the future, we shall finally have access to the tree of life, "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Rev 2:7) and shall be living in unbroken fellowship with God. ---------- Posted by Chris W on 11/5/2001, 3:08 am , in reply to "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" Dave, thanks for jumping in and answering this one. Boy, is my theology rusty or what!? Your answer makes great sense, and I know I'll be thinking about this for a while now.