Posted by JR, et al on 12/1/2001, 12:16 pm

Posted by JR on 10/15/2001, 8:29 pm It seems that some folks here that may think the Kingdom of God is a democracy. This is an impossibility. Democracy is the rule of the will of the people. A kingdom is the rule of a king. In a democracy, the will of the people becomes law. In a kingdom, the kings word is law. Just as "no man can serve two masters", you can't serve a kingdom and a democracy at the same time. Can you see how this might make the king a little jealous? What if the will of the people is against the king and his words? As a matter of fact, the will of the people is usualy to overthrow the king! Look down through history and tell me I'm wrong. The reason that I am writing this way is that I don't want your interests to be divided. Yahshua, while here in the flesh, proclaimed the law of the kingdom. It is HIS words that we will be judged by, for the King while on his throne, sits as Judge over his kingdom. This is why judgement must first begin in the house of God. Yahshua also left us an example, that we should follow in his steps. His life was a public example of what Yahweh expects from his children. I recently went back and took a fresh look at what Yahshua said it took to be his disciple. I decided to throw away all of the "isms" and "ologies", and take Yahshua at his word. I decided not to overlook or try to explain away Yahshua's "hard sayings". Yahshua lived what he preached and taught. I'm ashamed to tell you how far short I have fallen and how little faith I truly have. Aren't you glad that we can repent and still be forgiven!? Praise Yahweh, our King is a merciful Judge! Well, there's my thought's on politics and religion. What's yours? ---------- Improve this board- IGNORE DZ Posted by Brian Brookbank on 10/16/2001, 4:19 am , in reply to "Let's talk politics and religion ;-)" Let's discuss the merits of reading DZ's posts verses the merits of ignoring them. 1) Lack of intent to direct thoughts and actions to Jesus. 2) Lack of value due to lack of reliability. Who is next? Is David helped from his folly by treating him as one worth paying attention to? BB ---------- Hey Brian Posted by JR on 10/16/2001, 6:40 am , in reply to "Improve this board- IGNORE DZ" Brother, what are your thoughts on the subject? EVERYBODY knows DiZzy's, now you know mine, what are yours? I think I do need to add that at the present, there is probably no better place on earth than the USA. I am not Anti-American, I'm just Pro Kingdom of God. As a matter of fact, I am supposed to be a citizen and an ambassador(sp?) of the Kingdom. And no, I'm not a JW. So, let's here something from you. ---------- Posted by Steve B. on 10/16/2001, 7:25 am , in reply to "Let's talk politics and religion ;-)" JR, I haven't noticed anyone here saying that the kingdom of God was a democracy. Do you mean Brian's suggestion that we should vote on whether or not to let David Zaitzeff continue to post here? If so, I think it was clear that Brian was not confusing that matter with ultimate participation in the kingdom of God. He was only using the word "disfellowship" in a sort of ironic sense. On the other hand, most of us, having come out of the Chapel, have had some experience with a religious environment where we often heard statements like yours from the leadership, "the church is not a democracy." While cognizant of the truth of that statement, we also realize that looking at the church only as a kingdom, where in practice often one man ends up speaking for the King and no dissent is tolerated, is an approach that has its own very serious pitfalls. Unless you realize that the the Word of God guides us through the use of many different metaphors and similes, one can be prone to stumbling into a too-literal application of any one of them. Are you suggesting that a church, for example, should never come together to vote on any matter whatsoever? Sincerely, Steve ---------- Thank you Posted by JR on 10/16/2001, 9:23 am , in reply to "Re: Let's talk politics and religion ;-)" Dear Steve, Thank you for your thoughts. I really had no particular person in mind when I started this thread. I certainly wouldn't try to "bait" Brian into a debate, I just wanted to hear his thoughts. I'm also glad that you brought up the teaching at the Chapel. Though the Kingdom of God is not a democracy, it is also not a tyrrany or dictatorship. You write, On the other hand, most of us, having come out of the Chapel, have had some experience with a religious environment where we often heard statements like yours from the leadership, "the church is not a democracy." While cognizant of the truth of that statement, we also realize that looking at the church only as a kingdom, where in practice often one man ends up speaking for the King and no dissent is tolerated, is an approach that has its own very serious pitfalls. I agree wholeheartedly! Please don't take me wrong, I am not trying to be somebody or to lift up any other than Jesus. I am just stating that HIS word is our law. HE is Shepherd and Bishop of our souls. We are called to follow HIM and obey HIS words. Those who would wish to "lord it over" the brethren are hirelings, who want to "draw men after themselves", and as you have seen, they do not "spare the flock". Are you suggesting that a church, for example, should never come together to vote on any matter whatsoever? Not exactly. I think Acts 6 & 15 are good examples on how to address problems that arise in a group of believers. If our hearts are right, and our desire is to know the will of our King, He will be with us to show us. You also bring up a very important point in that looking at the church as only a kingdom misses the mark to a degree. Yes, the church is a kingdom, but we are also a family. This is the kind of dialogue I was looking for when I started this thread. I wanted the mature brethren to give their input so that I could weigh my thoughts and see if I am on the right track. In Christ, JR ---------- Posted by Steve B. on 10/16/2001, 11:19 am , in reply to "Thank you" JR, I guess my questions arose because of your first statement in your initial posting of this thread— It seems that some folks here that may think the Kingdom of God is a democracy. I was wondering which views in paticular had stimulated your thinking on this issue. It seems as if you meant to formulate a view that was meant to be a contrast to some view you have encountered here. As a starting point for discussion, it would be helpful to have a more specific idea of what issues you want to get at. Although I'm not sure it is relevant to the issues in which you are interested, it ought to be pointed out that the U.S. government wasn't designed to be a democracry in which the will of the people is uppermost, but rather a republic in which the rule of law is uppermost. Those at the Constitutional Convention (after learning some lessons from the rather ineffective start under the Articles of Confederation) were well aware of the dangers of democracy, and sought to design the present system of government to avoid the subjection of the rule of law to a simple majority vote on any given issue. The idea of a republic is that a cross-section of representatives deliberating on the application of the law would avoid the tyrannical domination of any one segment of the population by another. Sincerely, Steve Born email: srborn@seanet.com Home page: http://www.seanet.com/~srborn/