Posted by JR on 11/6/2001, 1:44 pm

Rom 13; no better alternative than the USA and NATO; JR's position Posted by dz on 10/8/2001, 6:24 pm , in reply to "Re: America not perfect, but used by God for freedom, like Cyrus and Constantine; God, govs and Saudis" >Now, as to the American government establishing the Taliban, this is a fact that the American >government admits. I would be happy to read your documentation of this. The USA has never recognized the Taliban as a legitimate government; why should I believe that they established them? >They even gave the Taliban 132 million dollars >THIS YEAR. Perhaps they did; however, I would like to see your documentation of this, if you have any. The USA has never recognized the Taliban as a government and they have given a lot in humanitarian aid to individual Afghanis. Is that food and blankets and other humanitarian aid to individual people, the $132 million of which you speak? If not, please document your assertions. The USA gave the Egyptian military some money and the USA in years past has supported the Saudis in various ways. >God chose Saul because Israel rejected HIM as >their king. Yes, and it does not change the fact that God chose Saul and God used Saul and God blessed Saul as king of Israel for a short time. God has even chosen and blessed unbelievers for His purposes when it suited Him! >God sent Moses to judge Egypt because Pharoah >forgot Joseph and began to enslave Israel. Yes, and therefore, what? Does the USA enslave or kill Christians like the wicked Pharaoh? Do the Taliban? If you think that the USA has been enslaving and killing Christians, you can just wait for God to show Himself to you in a burning bush and to send you to Bush telling Bush to stop enslaving and killing Christians. While you are at it, you can turn some water into blood and send a plague of flies or locusts or darkness upon the land, and then have God kill all the firstborn. Afterwards, I am sure that Bush and ABC and CBS and NBC will all be listening to you. However, until then, it is just the few of us on this board, that seems to attrack people who believe God is upset with the USA! God >annointed Joshua to fulfill his promise to >Abraham. and did God anoint George Washington to defeat the British, the founding fathers to write the Constitution, Lincoln and Grant to defeat Lee, and Patton to defeat the Germans? Or, did God's anointing people stop after about 100AD? Perhaps, if we are to believe you, God has anointed no one since the time of John the Revelator, and prior to you? Or, perhaps you have a pastor who shares your views that God is very angry at the USA, perhaps a Christian militia type pastor--I have communicated with one such Christian--and no Christians have been anointed by God from 100AD until your pastor appeared on the scene? Romans 13 teaches that God has ordained human governments and that they wield the sword on God's behalf. You perhaps believe this about the ancient Roman Empire, but not about the USA? God has chosen and blessed the USA, not perfectly but generally, together with the NATO alliance, to ensure more and more peace and freedom and what some call the American way. It does not seem to me that you are offering any better alternative. If there are minor flaws in the USA, and I agree that there are, they will be solved gradually as the church becomes more spiritually mature and votes according to its greater spiritual wisdom. I don't actually understand what, if any, theological position you wish to advocate. Are you a pacifist? Or, you believe that violence can and should be used, but, against the people with whom you don't agree, say, abortion providers or pornography producers or the ACLU? And, you are upset at the US government because 1) it won't use the violence you want used against someone with whom you disagree; 2) it will stop you from using that violence yourself. Is that it? ---------- My response Posted by JR on 10/9/2001, 12:17 am , in reply to "Rom 13; no better alternative than the USA and NATO; JR's position" DZ, You write: If you think that the USA has been enslaving and killing Christians, you can just wait for God to show Himself to you in a burning bush and to send you to Bush telling Bush to stop enslaving and killing Christians. While you are at it, you can turn some water into blood and send a plague of flies or locusts or darkness upon the land, and then have God kill all the firstborn. I never said these things, but I am warning of things to come. You write: Afterwards, I am sure that Bush and ABC and CBS and NBC will all be listening to you. Yeah like Pharoah listened to Moses and drowned in the Red Sea. You: Or, did God's anointing people stop after about 100AD? Perhaps, if we are to believe you, God has anointed no one since the time of John the Revelator, and prior to you? Or, perhaps you have a pastor who shares your views that God is very angry at the USA, perhaps a Christian militia type pastor--I have communicated with one such Christian--and no Christians have been anointed by God from 100AD until your pastor appeared on the scene? I never said anything like that either. These are conclusions that you have drawn, straw men. You: Romans 13 teaches that God has ordained human governments and that they wield the sword on God's behalf. You perhaps believe this about the ancient Roman Empire, but not about the USA? God has chosen and blessed the USA, not perfectly but generally, together with the NATO alliance, to ensure more and more peace and freedom and what some call the American way. It does not seem to me that you are offering any better alternative. I will get around to that. You: I don't actually understand what, if any, theological position you wish to advocate. Are you a pacifist? I haven't offered any theological position on this board other than what Yahshua said was the greatest commandment. And yes, I am a pacifist. Now, for the documentation of my assertions, which come from the press by the way. Link: Read the whole story http://www.bushnews.com/attack.htm ---------- One more link for you Posted by JR on 10/9/2001, 12:53 am , in reply to "My response" DZ, I am going to give you a link to a web site that keeps track of the press. The guy who runs it is a patriot and a christian. He doesn't write any articles, he just posts links from online newspapers from around the world. By the way, while you scroll through the links(you will find them toward the middle of the page), please remember, I'm a pacifist. Link: Alex Jones http://infowars.com/ ---------- JR: "I never said these things, but I am warning of things to come." Which are, precisely, what? Posted by dz on 10/9/2001, 10:07 am , in reply to "My response" >I never said these things, but I am warning of >things to come. Do you care to be more specific? What, in particular, are you predicting? A downturn in the economy? Oh, you are a genius! After all, David Wilkerson has been warning of God's judging the US since 1973. His five major predictions were: 1) giant killer earthquakes, larger than any in human history; 2) dust bowls; 3) economic collapse; 4) hydrogen bomb attack from Russia or the Soviet Union; 5) computer disasters. So far, that is only zero out of five. The one thing that did happen, Wilkerson had not predicted. So, if you would like to step up to the plate, I am sure that you can do as well or even better than Wilkerson! >Yeah like Pharoah listened to Moses and drowned >in the Red Sea. It does not seem to me that you are offering any better alternative. >I will get around to that. No doubt. I am waiting. If you are a pacifist, was it wrong of Jehu to smite the house of Ahab? Was it wrong for Constantine to defeat Maxentius and Licinius? Was it wrong for Washington to fight the British and for the Allies to fight Hitler? You: I don't actually understand what, if any, theological position you wish to advocate. Are you a pacifist? >Now, for the documentation of my assertions, >which come from the press by the way. which link in particular says that we gave the Taliban $132 million? ---------- to come: occasional terrorist attacks, gradually diminishing in severity, end of Taliban, Saddam H, Posted by dz on 10/9/2001, 10:14 am , in reply to "My response" ---------- Posted by JR on 10/9/2001, 10:00 pm , in reply to "JR: "I never said these things, but I am warning of things to come." Which are, precisely, what?" DZ, First you write: You remind me a little of James and John who wanted to burn a village of Samaritans for not receiving Jesus in hospitality. Jesus says, "You don't know what spirit you have," i.e. that of the devil, Luke 9:55. And when I tell you I'm a pacifist, and don't believe in violence, then, willing to justify yourself and condemn me even further, you ask: If you are a pacifist, was it wrong of Jehu to smite the house of Ahab? Was it wrong for Constantine to defeat Maxentius and Licinius? Was it wrong for Washington to fight the British and for the Allies to fight Hitler? Why do you ask me to either condemn or justify others? Just before the "Gulf War", when brought to task for giving military aid to Iraq during their war with Iran, our Goverment admitted it and said they had made a mistake in underestimating the agression of the Iraqi government. The same is true with Bin Laden. It seems me that no matter what position I take with you, I am damned. So, instead of continuing this endless debate, I will let you have the last word. Later Tater, JR