Posted by Gordy, et al on 11/1/2001, 12:13 pm

Posted by Gordy on 10/5/2001, 2:13 pm I find the statement the leader of Israel made and the President's response to it of great interest. Finally, if only in words, someone in our government has the guts to call Israel on the carpet. We pay billions in foreign aid to them so they can survive. They in part use our charity to subsidize their exports making it easy to compete with American made products in America. I know firsthand as it has greatly affected my business. At least someone has dared to rebuke them verbally. I'm sure we will soon have hundreds of holocaust reminders in the next few days in an attempt to instill guilt and will probably hear about "those poor holocaust victims in Florida" again. (Remember the last election?) Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Semitic but I believe this country needs to put it interests in front of other countries even if affects (Oh my God) Israel. They needed to be trimmed back a little at least as far as biting the hand that feeds them. I doubt we will bite back but just publicly denouncing their whining made my day. Gordy ---------- Posted by Keith on 10/5/2001, 9:36 pm , in reply to "Finally...." Putting your financial problems aside have you noticed what Israel has had to put up with as of late? Have you taken a clear honest look at what is going on, in my opinion (more of Keiths gut feelings) Israel is being pushed into the corner so this war on terrorism doesn't get out of hand all the while they are suppose to hold their breath while people are slaughtered. I have no biblical thoughts in mind only what I perceive to be great injustice and unbalanced bias by numerous countries against Israel. Maybe their business practices have been a little shady and maybe they've got some preferential treatment but do they deserve the devastation (comparable to 9-11) to the people of their country? NO! I am surprised to hear a post like this from you Gordy because of money. Not that they are above anyone else but they are at this time in a terrible predicament and I feel the facts speak for themselves. ---------- Posted by Gordy on 10/6/2001, 11:09 am , in reply to "Re: Finally...." Keith: Money isn't THE issue though it is an issue. I mentioned it as a side point really. I will admit though it is difficult to compete with my own tax money. I pay copious amounts. I have had great reservations about this nation's policy toward Israel for many years, long before I was affected financially. It is true they have to put up with a lot and I certainly don't envy their position but I believe we have to put our interests above that of any nation including Israel. If Israel was in covenant with Yahweh I would look at it differently. One day they will again be in covenant but not until after great calamity. Many Christians quote a verse of scripture telling the Jews He will curse those that curse Israel and bless those that bless them. Christ told the "descendants" of Abraham if they were really the children of Abraham they would do the works of Abraham. Unless I am mistaken, Israel, as a nation, isn't doing the works of Abraham. I just cannot correlate an obligation on our part to protect or support them at our own expense based on scripture. I have also grown weary of having the holocaust reminder every time something happens to Israel. That was human tragedy for sure but I sense it is used against our best interests. It was the U.S. that put a halt to it and using it to instill guilt or pity to sway public opinion in America in favor of Israel NO MATTER WHAT is disgusting to me. I wish them the best but I cannot support policies that put their interests (or anyone else's) above our own as a nation. Don't read more into it than what I have actually said. Gordy ---------- Posted by Keith on 10/6/2001, 8:30 pm , in reply to "Re: Finally...." I do not have in mind the scripture telling the Jews He will curse those that curse Israel and bless those that bless them, this is just my honest opinion. Just the same since you bring that scripture up, why after 1900 or so years do we find them back in the promised land if God didn't have something in mind for them at some point? If anything in history is obvious I think Israel and 1948 is unprecedented. The Holocaust is still a legitimate case to bring up again and again in my mind, look at Jewish history before world war II, the holocaust was one of many atrocities against Jews. I still have to say I got a bad feeling reading your post, even though you said not to read anything into it. ---------- Posted by Eric H. on 10/6/2001, 10:48 pm , in reply to "Re: Finally...." Their house was declared desolate. While I am sure there are some Christians in that geographical region, the state of Israel rejects Yahshua as the Messiah. Yahshua said anyone who was not with us, is against us. Need we consider anymore why the US backs Israel? Eric ---------- Posted by Keith on 10/7/2001, 12:47 pm , in reply to "Re: Finally...." I don't think you should be generalizing a group of people or a nation, there are varied people with different thoughts, children, etc, which as you alluded to includes Jewish Christians. Is the US or any country really that much better? Right is still right and wrong is still wrong. Injustice is o.k. as long as whoever the victim is is against Yahshua? No injustice is never o.k. Until we die, until individual Israelis die we/they will have the opportunity to make good decisions, to accept Jesus. ---------- Good Point Posted by Eric H. on 10/7/2001, 5:12 pm , in reply to "Re: Finally...." I am not saying that those who are against Yahshua are ok targets for acts of war or aggression. I'm not even saying that it is ok for Israel to be a target, either. I don't think anyone should be a target....period. Be that as it may, targets we are. We really ought to take a good hard look at what state sponsered involvements we have been into as a country. If we as a nation are in support of Israel because of their "brotherhood" religious convictions, we probably need to consider why we consider them brothers in the first place. ---------- Posted by Gordy on 10/7/2001, 7:02 pm , in reply to "Good Point" Eric: You said: If we as a nation are in support of Israel because of their "brotherhood" religious convictions, we probably need to consider why we consider them brothers in the first place. That is an excellent summary of my feelings toward Israel. I believe our support of Israel, or lack thereof, must be based on something other than a false sense of spiritual obligation based on erroneous assumptions of some concocted brotherhood. I believe this is a time when we need to examine ourselves, not only as a nation, but as individuals, especially those of who name the name of Christ. I was talking to one of my employees the other day and he said "we should be careful about changing our policy toward Israel because it would be a sign of weakness". I'm sure some would look at it that way. I responded and said "So, are you saying we should continue in error for fear of looking bad or weak?" He said "Yes". At least he was honest in his confused state of mind. Gordy ---------- Posted by Gordy on 10/7/2001, 1:45 pm , in reply to "Re: Finally...." I am perplexed over why Christians think we have an obligation to protect and support Israel to a much higher degree than any other nation. I am not anti-Israel but rather pro U.S. I am not anti-Zimbabwe either, for example, but wouldn't agree to putting their national interests above ours. Many nations have suffered greatly since the U.S. was founded and became a power but we don't rush to their aid like we do for Israel. If you or someone can explain to me why, whether logically or scripturally, we are obligated to Israel more than other nation(s) please have at it. I am open to changing my viewpoint on this subject. Many Christians mistakenly or ignorantly refer to Israel as the "Holy Land". I believe Don once said there is nothing Holy about it. I agree. I also believe your thinking on the holocaust has been formed in part as a result of the Israeli propaganda machine. You are not alone. I again state the holocaust was a tragedy of epic proportions, but, using it as a guilt instilling tool on the American people to garner unquestioned support for Israel's foreign and internal policies I find disgusting. The slightest criticism of Israel brings immediate charges of anti-semitism in attempt to brow beat opponents into submission. Sharon displayed his arrogance in lecturing the U.S. Who is he to bite the hand that feeds him in such a public display of arrogance? His concern isn't for Americans but what is best for his small corner of the world. Any concerns he has for America are only there because because without us Israel would cease to exist as we know it. Sure Yahweh will come to their rescue at a point in time. Sharon's arrogance is only exceeded by his inability to conceal it. I see he finally apologized, not for the statement, but the "nisunderstanding" it caused. More arrogance. We need to be wary and wise before supporting any nation as we have Israel. That of course is only my opinion. If my position gives you bad feelings Keith I am surprised. I obviously have a different position on Isarel than you, that is obvious. Why does my position bother you so much, I am just curious. You can EM me if you like to take it off the public record. Gordy