Posted by PM on 10/8/2001, 11:27 am

Who and What are you talking about? Posted by Phil on 9/20/2001, 8:17 am , in reply to "abortion and Is 45:1-4" David, So, you are suggesting that America does not deserve to be preserved, unless it is theocratically oriented in such a way that it prohibits various individual sins? Did I say that? How far are you going to go with this? Should adulterers and homosexuals also be put to death? Otherwise, God can't and won't bless America? What about witches? I have a friend who is a witch. Should we insist that she be put to death in order that God can bless America? I just think this nation ought to quit sanctioning the murder of the innocent, and we ought to consider this carefully before getting on the bandwagon of the new American patriotism. This sin of America which troubles you, did God commit it when He sent the flood and when he told the children of Israel to enter the land of Canaan? And, this "sin" seems to be associated with a lowered crime and delinquency rate? Yahweh is the Judge OF nations, which I'd say makes your comparison absurd. You would not pray for or fight for the continued existence of the American government and system, unless the USA agrees to prohibit abortion? If it falls apart, that would be just peachy? I didn't say any of that either. I'm just not so spiritually inept as to think Yahweh should continue to bless such a presumptuous nation. My point is that our national attention is being drawn towards upholding the country for all the good it represents without regard for the massive volumes of innocent blood that it continues to shed amongst our own people. I want God to bless America, and the most direct route I see to that is for America to repent. I don't want America harmed at all, and the biggest threat to that is our own national sin. Now, since you raised other issues, let me be clear that I'm not too worried about homosexuals, witches, etc. I am concerned about the murderers of the innocent - all those with the blood of aborted babies on their hands and heads - and I'm concerned about our national endorsement of evil accordingly. With so much murder going on, its hard for me to even be concerned about other evidences of evil in our midst. Should we thank God for the patriots who fought in 1776, 1865 or 1941-5? Are you forgotting that in the Bible, God chose and blessed men who were not believers, because they would bless the people of God?... So, knowing better, I should just seek God's blessing on America and overlook the millions of babies it murders. Why? Because it is a critical hour in which we need to unite? Again, a godless brotherhood of man is Babel all over again. If we think God is going to bless our right hand in its fight against "evil-doers" while we rip babies out of the womb with our left hand, we must truly think we sit a queen! ...God chose the government of Jehu, even though He knew it would contain or allow for sins. And He will continue to accomplish His purposes regardless of man's wickedness. Congress, President Bush and Americans of various religions and creeds are praying that God bless and help and protect America. So are many people in other lands. There are many Afghans, (some of them are our future Christian brothers) hoping or praying for deliverance from the Taliban. So, are we going to take a poll on whether or not America is worthy of God's blessing? Murder is murder! Innocent blood is innocent blood! America kills its own babies for the sake of money and convenience! They are hoping and praying for deliverance, just as Jews in the concentration camps hoped and prayed for Allied victory. I'm hoping and praying for the deliverance of the thousands of babies murdered daily in this land, like the millions of Jews who were slaughtered by the Nazis. And since you raised that issue, let me remind you that Hitler came into power through the collective will of the German people in response to emotional appeals to their sense of patriotism. There is nothing anti-American about me, but I am more pro-Yahweh than pro-American. I will not for the sake of unity, patriotism, or even the preservation of this nation embrace or endorse the mass murder of the innocent -- not by foreign terrorists or American abortionists. Sharing a common enemy (the terrorists) doesn't justify going to bed with murderers. ---------- on Phil, Steve B and national repentance Posted by david zaitzeff on 9/20/2001, 12:49 pm , in reply to "Who and What are you talking about?" >I'm just not so spiritually inept as to think Yahweh should continue to bless such a >presumptuous nation. I would venture to say that He has in the past. >My point is that our national attention is being drawn towards upholding the country for all the >good it represents without regard for the massive volumes >of innocent blood that it continues to shed >amongst our own people. Even during the Revolutionary War, many Americans owned and held slaves. Yet, afterwards and today, we tend to regard that as a sin. Some slave owners abused their slaves even beyond the fact of slavery. Yet, God made a distinction between the British and American armies. God sent fog to save our armies at Long Island. God gave the British foolish generals. God did this because America would turn out to be a blessing to Christians far more than Britain. God did this despite the various sins of various individuals in America. >I want God to bless America, and the most direct route I see to that is for America to repent. I >don't want America harmed at all, and the >biggest threat to that is our own national sin. Is that what God has told you personally? If not, why should I or we believe you? I am simply not convinced that God sees abortion in America the way that you do. If America has a "national sin" it is indifference to God, compared to what it could be. America is very spiritual and very Christian and very religious compared to the rest of the world, but it is unspiritual and unChristian compared to what it could be, can be and will become. The people like you, who have been predicting judgment and disaster on America for its sins--David Wilkerson in his books, Jerrry Falwell, Pat Robertson, all the prophets of the theprophecyclub.com--they are all always proven wrong, or, at best, they speak after the fact and then they repent of their own statements! Why is that? In a different thread, Steve Born was hoping that this calamity would lead to national soul-searching and repentance. He said that he did not see that it was. It is, but not in the way that he sees. People are attending church, praying and committing their lives to God. Is that enough? Apparently not to Steve! The people like Falwell and Robertson issued statements of exactly the kind that Steve Born was hoping and desiring, and then they repudiated them a few days later! I posted on this board what Falwell and Robertson said in their original broadcast, and an essay distributed immediately afterwards by the 700Club. It is sufficiently offensive that dave Kenady deleted my post, presumably on the grounds that F&R had repented of their own statements! DZ ---------- correction of slight error Posted by david zaitzeff on 9/20/2001, 12:53 pm , in reply to "on Phil, Steve B and national repentance" I said that Dave had deleted my post in which I posted the original word-for-word comments of Falwell/Robertson. I seem to be mistaken, because that post is still there now. For some reason, last night around 11 or 12pm, it was not showing up when I accessed this board, or I did not see it because I was looking in a wrong place. Sorry for any hasty, mistaken conclusion! Please forgive me! Dz ---------- Sorry, David.... Posted by Steve B. on 9/20/2001, 1:11 pm , in reply to "on Phil, Steve B and national repentance" ...Though you misrepresent what I've actually written on this subject, I'm no longer dignifying your postings with replies to the specific points. Somebody who posts essays on his Web site defending his tastes in child pornography cannot be taken seriously as a Christian disciple, and therefore your words lie outside my sphere of interest. Sincerely, Steve