Posted by Phil Maxwell, et al on 10/8/2001, 11:18 am

Posted by Phil Maxwell on 9/18/2001, 10:07 am Did anyone catch Regis & Kelly Live this a.m.? Like so many others, they put together an emotionally charged multi-media presentation of scenes from the rubble of last week's attacks backed by pleasant music. The music, however, was John Lennon's "Imagine" -- you know, the song that talks about a godless brotherhood of man. (Hmmm, isn't that what ancient Babel was?) In the light of the great charge to hail the American flag as the icon of democracy, I can't help but think how fitting this was. Democracy is a great concept except for one thing: It assumes the collective good will of man's heart. Countless millions of babies slaughtered by their own mothers with the democratically elected US Government's blessing testify to the error of this premise. So do the shouts that echo through the ages from a gathering of religious leaders long ago - "Crucify him! Crucify him!" Though it may be the best man alone can do, I don't think the collective will of man is a viable head of state. I'm not exactly sure what President Bush means by "evil-doers" and how he and the international coalition he is rallying intend to eradicate the same from the world. Until I do, I'm going to consider the possibility that the American flag has evolved into an icon of a modern democratic Babel, of which there is no limit to the evil it can do. Imagining a world which denies the existence of Yahweh the Creator and Judge of the world is getting easier and easier with every high level press conference I see.... ---------- Posted by Keith on 9/18/2001, 10:38 am , in reply to "Imagine..." On one hand I see your point but until it comes to that, why worry? What will come will come. What was done was evil, the act of "evil-doers". You can stand up for righteousness, for goodness, regardless of who is standing by your side. Human existence on an individual scale, I think is what is most important, the comfort needed by those that have been devastated children without parents, husbands missing wives, mothers and fathers missing children. I for one will stand behind the American flag as long as I have freedom to worship the God of the Bible and to promote Christianity. I will continue to vote what I think is right and stand up for what is right, the American flag gives me that right. God has given us a free will, America has given us the right to use that free will. That's a good thing in my opinion. I know you don't necessarily disagree with what I brought, I feel the unity at this point isn't necessarily a bad thing. ---------- Posted by Phil on 9/18/2001, 11:55 am , in reply to "Re: Imagine..." Well, of course, my point goes primarily towards be watchful, a very biblically sound notion. However, I'm concerned about endorsing evil entirely on a basis of what I get out of something. Does the liberty America grants us alter the truth about the innocent blood on this country's head? Our nation is as guilty of innocent blood as the 3,000 Jews who heard Peter on the day of Pentecost were of Yahshua's. Regardless of how many good things seem to come out of someone, a murderer is a murderer. I wouldn't have stood behind Saul before his conversion, and I won't stand behind this country or its icons until/unless it repents of its murders, lest I become a partaker of its evil. Of course, nothing I'm saying here has any bearing whatsoever on having or showing compassion towards those who suffer. As you said, "You can stand up for righteousness, for goodness, regardless of who is standing by your side." However, it is a long reach from that to your stand, "I for one will stand behind the American flag as long as I have freedom to worship the God of the Bible and to promote Christianity." I think I'll stand for righteousness and goodness, too, but in order to do that, I might need to bypass pledging allegience to the flag of the United States of America. ---------- abortion and Is 45:1-4 Posted by david zaitzeff on 9/19/2001, 3:41 pm , in reply to "Re: Imagine..." "I think I'll stand for righteousness and goodness, too, but in order to do that, I might need to bypass pledging allegience to the flag of the United States of America." So, you are suggesting that America does not deserve to be preserved, unless it is theocratically oriented in such a way that it prohibits various individual sins? How far are you going to go with this? Should adulterers and homosexuals also be put to death? Otherwise, God can't and won't bless America? What about witches? I have a friend who is a witch. Should we insist that she be put to death in order that God can bless America? This sin of America which troubles you, did God commit it when He sent the flood and when he told the children of Israel to enter the land of Canaan? And, this "sin" seems to be associated with a lowered crime and delinquency rate? You would not pray for or fight for the continued existence of the American government and system, unless the USA agrees to prohibit abortion? If it falls apart, that would be just peachy? Should we thank God for the patriots who fought in 1776, 1865 or 1941-5? Are you forgotting that in the Bible, God chose and blessed men who were not believers, because they would bless the people of God? We see this explicitly stated about Cyrus the Great and Jacob blessed Pharoah. God chose and appointed and upheld Cyrus the Great, because he would free Israel to return to the land. This is a fulfillment of Gen 12:3. Likewise, God chose Jehu over the house of Ahab, even though Jehu continued in some sins of Israel. II Kings 9,10! God chose the government of Jehu, even though He knew it would contain or allow for sins. Congress, President Bush and Americans of various religions and creeds are praying that God bless and help and protect America. So are many people in other lands. There are many Afghans, (some of them are our future Christian brothers) hoping or praying for deliverance from the Taliban. They are hoping and praying for deliverance, just as Jews in the concentration camps hoped and prayed for Allied victory.