Posted by Keith, et al on 9/2/2001, 2:41 pm

Concerning putting UROG theology behind us Posted by Keith on 7/4/2001, 8:52 am My experience with people from the Chapel with various backgrounds has been that they've held onto this theology or close to it. Steve in my opinion is a rare example of someone who has gone back to embracing the Trinity, which in my mind has been completely disproven through the Unfolding Revelation of God. I have every reason personally to open up to the Trinity due to the church I've been attending. The only problem I have is as an individual when I read the Bible in my mind it overwhelmingly denies to Trinity and confirms some version of what I believe. All Scriptures that somehow indicate Jesus is God can be understood by this handful of Scriptures (along with others). Again I will emphasis that this first Scripture (the words of Jesus) tie my theology together by itself. JN 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.". 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, COL 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, Rom 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rev. 21: 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp In heaven at the end the Bible differentiates God (again its an assumption to say this is less than all of God) and the lamb. The following Scriptures show Jesus was given this position by the Father, Who is God alone and that Jesus is in a lesser subordinate position to the Father. JN 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. JN5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. JN 8: 28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him JN 14:28 "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. PHP 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, PHP 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, PHP 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I have every right to use the Bible to interpret why the Bible seems to indicate Jesus is God. My convictions couldn't allow me to accept a doctrine such as the Trinity that has to be explained and re-explained, a doctrine that is confusing to a large percentage (probably the majority) of people who believe it. Its a distortion of the valuable truth the Bible contains and robs many, it seems religious, mysterious, etc. I believe in many minds its thought "why bother it doesn't make any sense?" Steve has worked hard and found answers, just like the Constitution can be interpreted convincingly a myriad of different ways. I sometimes feel I get too caught up in this but when I see the tremendous truth that the Bible contains which could spark many many hearts, this motivates me. I have no idea what to do but it motivates me. ---------- Posted by Author Unknown on 7/4/2001, 9:29 am , in reply to "Concerning putting UROG theology behind us." First of all, to be fair to our study, the two creeds of the Trinity – The Athanasian and the modern creed that this book addresses – have been spelled out. Neither creed mentions that "God the Son" was manifest in the man Jesus. In fact, neither Trinity calls Jesus a man. They both stipulate that the Son is the same in substance as the other two persons. The Athanasian creed even claims that the Son is proceeding from the Father! The position that the WORD or LOGOS in John: 1 was manifest in a human Christ is correctly called Logos Christology in the textbooks. Many people who believe this doctrine call themselves Trinitarians. This teaching is that Christ was the Word in heaven, and this Word created the Universe while existing alongside the Father in a pre-incarnate state. Then, at the time of the virgin birth, this Word was incarnate in the man Jesus. Add to this, additional Trinitarian convictions, and we have this "WORD" subsisting as the coequal and coeternal "God the Son." This perception of the nature of Jesus is based on a misunderstanding of the first chapter in the gospel of John. It is a theory that is formed easily, and at first glance appears to be backed up by Scripture. This is how the theory is formed: Jesus is seen in the book of Revelation sitting on a white horse – "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God" (Re 19:13). From here, we go to the Gospels and make our connection: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" Jn 1:1-3). Because Jesus is called the WORD in Scripture, many Christians, in their minds, simply replace the word WORD in the gospel of John, with the name Jesus. Once this is done the text reveals that Jesus was with God in the beginning creating all things. But this view has absolutely no validity. It is based on reverse chronology and a lack of comprehension of the concept God is representing. Let us read the text again completely, with a fresh approach. The word Logos is the Greek expression of the word “word” in the text we are viewing. This word Logos literally means thought or plan. It would make sense to substitute the word plan for “word” to get an idea of what this passage is depicting. John 1:1-3 and verse 14:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;” verse 2, "The same was in the beginning with God;" verse 3, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made;" verse 14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." All things were made by “him” is a misnomer; in him or through him is a better rendition. This chapter in John is not saying that the "Logos" is a pre-incarnate Christ. What is being said is that God had a blueprint for creation. As we have seen all through this book, God's original plan was fulfilled in Christ. The image that Christ attained was the exact set of specifications the Creator had designated for His glory in this Creation. In John, where it reads, "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" 1:1, the verse is indicating that the nature of God, even his image and likeness, will be revealed in his finished creation. That is just what we see happen in this creation as we are "changed into the same image.” This image was in the plan from the beginning, the image of Christ. And Christ is the express image of God. Therefore, in John where it reads: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" 1:14, the text is referring to Christ, in a mature, fully-tested condition as the express mirror image of the Father, Christ is also the exact representation of the original plan. What most men fail to see in verse 14 is that the plan became flesh. That happened either when, or sometime after, the child Jesus was conceived. To reverse this series of events violates the whole study. It would be like a great designer drafting a blueprint, then having a carpenter fashion the structure to the exact glory of the original plan. Then someone, later in history and completely unaware of the process, speculates that the structure was with the designer in the beginning. Other than common sense, proper use of the original Greek language, and keeping the series of events mentioned in this text in the order mentioned is there any other reason not to believe this verse is speaking of the Son, in a pre-incarnate state, creating the universe? Yes, there are other Scriptures on the creation that are not figurative, or hard to understand because of their symbolic narrative. Clear Scripture confirms that the Logos cannot be Jesus Christ in a pre-incarnate state performing a creative role. Isaiah 44:24: "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself" – Yahweh claims He had no help creating the universe. GOD even dispelled any possibility that He delegated this task to another. Seeing that Yahweh, our Father, has stated this so completely, we are now over this tangent! (Hallmark of Christianity, Author Unknown)