Posted by Author Unknown, et al on 8/25/2001, 5:06 pm

The Anointed One Posted by Author Unknown on 7/1/2001, 10:43 am The Diety of Jesus It appears that Christians get mad faster discussing this subject than perhaps any other doctrine. Most if not all of us recognize that “God was in Christ.” The question remains, to what extent was Jesus Christ God? Was he simply the "Anointed One" having no Deity of his own, outside of that in which the Father who dwelled in him contained? Or was Jesus God outside of his anointed status? The question is, when the Father withdrew His spirit from the man Jesus on the cross, what was left behind 1. A God 2. A Man. If we take the Anointing away from the anointed One what would we have left? I believe Jesus had a real human soul. I believe Jesus had a human body that could sustain life without the fullness of God’s essence within. The Bible reads “There is One God and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus,” (I Timothy 2:5) not the God Christ Jesus. However All authority has been given to Christ in this dispensation, including the very name of God. Therefore I will approach the Father through the door of His Christ. I will pray to Jesus as God. Wouldn’t it be a shame to disrespect the honor and glory that has been bestowed upon Jesus from the Father’s own hand? One day during a Bible study as I was sharing the nature of God and His Christ with a well-known minister. As I was speaking I stepped outside my body and I saw Jesus standing in my stead. Jesus was the one who was now speaking. I have often wondered if Jesus himself stepped aside at times and allowed the Father to speak through him directly. ---------- Posted by Steve B. on 7/1/2001, 2:08 pm , in reply to "The Anointed One" A.U., You ask The question is, when the Father withdrew His spirit from the man Jesus on the cross, what was left behind 1. A God 2. A Man. You load your question beforehand by presuming the answer—you say the the Father withdrew his Spirit from “the man Jesus.” Additionally, the Bible does not really quite say that happened. All we know for sure is that in his suffering, Jesus cried out in a quotation of an Old Testament scripture—"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" He at least felt as if God had abandoned him, but this is all the Biblical text gives us justification to state as certain. We're dealing with something cried out as a question, and it is in a narrative describing the suffering of Jesus, not in a passage which is teaching directly about the nature of the relationship of Jesus to God. In other words, you have apparently based your theology on a hypothetical situation which may be a plausible interpretation of what the Bible relates but is not, strictly speaking, what it actually says. I think it is better to build up a picture of who Jesus is by letting all of scripture speak for itself and only then forming a theology of who Jesus is. If we come to the New Testament with pre-determined conclusions about who Jesus Christ can or cannot be, we run the danger of missing the truth when we encounter "difficult" scriptures that contradict our theology. Also, passages that are directly describing the relationship of Jesus to God, such as John 1 and Philippians 2, seem to me to be better places to start than with a hypothetical questions the Bible does not pose. I refer to your question, “was Jesus God outside of his anointed status?” The Bible never shows interest in this question, and, in fact, I do not know if it can be said that it is possible to separate Jesus from his "anointed status," anyway. How could that have any meaning when the Bible isn't even clear on whether that's possible or not? Sincerely, Steve Born Email: srborn@seanet.com Home page: http://www.seanet.com/~srborn/ ---------- Posted by Cliff on 7/1/2001, 10:45 pm , in reply to "Re: The Anointed One" Steve, I have been following your answers with great interest as they fairly consistently follow a good Trinitarian viewpoint. Your command of language and scripture is very good and I value your effort, and your heart, even though I disagree with your conclusions. This last response, however was pure oatmeal. Who and what died? I contend a perfect man...the temple of God on earth...the one who was rent so that God could access all of us...died. Completely. A man. Since God is spirit, God cannot die. Likewise there is no mincing with words here. If He says God forsook Him....any court of law believes the words of a dying man. What is the purpose of his death other than to take on the sins of the world, and what part can God have in carrying that burden...He can do nothing but to give it to one who can justly carry it. Only a perfect MAN can do that. God can have no part with sin, as by definition, sin is separation from God. He must be only MAN at death. ---------- A reply. Posted by Steve B. on 7/2/2001, 11:30 am , in reply to "Re: The Anointed One" Cliff, You write I have been following your answers with great interest as they fairly consistently follow a good Trinitarian viewpoint. Your command of language and scripture is very good and I value your effort, and your heart, even though I disagree with your conclusions. Thank you. You ask Who and what died? Jesus Christ died. What that fully means in terms of his nature or existence, I don't know. One thing I know it cannot mean is that the scriptural statements of his deity are simply false. Another thing I know is that scripture never applies the fact of Christ's death in the same way you do—that is, it never draws from it the lesson that he was simply a man in whom God dwells, and that other than this he cannot be regarded as God. That is, you ultimately seem to be basing your doctrine of who Jesus is on the conclusion of a logical syllogism rather than on what the scriptures say about him. That logical syllogism is: God cannot die. Jesus died. Therefore Jesus is not God. Now, though your major and minor premises are taken from the scriptures, the conclusion goes flatly against the things the scriptures in fact show us about Jesus. Consequently, if we really do believe that revealed truth and not human reason is the basis for our knowledge of God, we have to conclude that there is a fatal flaw in this syllogism someplace. I myself think it lies in implicit assumptions made about Jesus' nature, about his death, and about God—assumptions that ignore things revealed in the scriptures. My point is not that logic is invalid or worthless, only that it is very difficult to apply correctly at any time, but especially when dealing with spiritual things. This observation applies to more than just the death of Christ, by the way. For example, you cannot explain the physical details of how he walked on water without flatly contradicting known scientific laws, but I doubt if you have discarded your belief in that Biblical event because of it. This is why I must sometimes demur when shown "logical" conclusions from things the scriptures say (or when shown what “MUST” be true, given the things said by the scriptures). If those “logical” conclusions (or those “MUSTs”) themselves contradict other things I can clearly see elsewhere in the scriptures, I must go with what I can see in the scriptures instead of accepting what somebody else tells me I must conclude. Sincerely, Steve ---------- Re: A reply to nonsense Posted by cliff on 7/2/2001, 11:48 pm , in reply to "A reply." Steve, That was absolute horsepucky. The same "mystery" that Catholics used as an excuse from whenever. You are not taking the weight of scriptures honestly. If I have to take a scripture that seems to lean towards pre-existence and find a way that it fits in my theology...which I do. Then for you to toss common sense out the window as your logical arguement is absolutely preposterous. God is the author of logic. Why does John say twice that no man has seen God at any time? Simple. God is a spirit and cannot be seen. Jesus is either a man, an apparition, or a shell. You pick. If he is a man, then the spirit of God is in him and spirits of another being can come and go. If that spirit is of the second person, why does he say the Father (#1) is in him? Then when he dies, the father leaves, so then he remains a man (or shell or apparition) with his own second person of God nature. So as the second person of God, going through death is no big deal. Since he is unseperable in identity from the father as God, the father can't really leave. If God is not seperated from sin at the death of Christ, no price has been paid. Sin is separation from God. Don't hide behind the "logic doesn't always work" routine. God can have no part of sin. How can Christ become sin, take the full burden of it and be God at the same time? Thoelogically impossible. No, it is not a mystery. A perfect man. THE lamb had to die. He was then given ALL things. How can he be the WAY, if there was not somewhere to go? He is how we get to God. Why would he be the mediator between God and man, if there was not a transition to cross...from physical to spritual? God is in him, we come to him and find God. He can die and be the firstborn of the resurrected, like men will do because of him. If we die, we hope on resurrection in the same manner....not a show ritual by someone who didn't really have to do the exact same thing.