Posted by SB on 8/18/2001, 11:15 am

Excuse me? Posted by Steve B. on 6/29/2001, 7:32 am , in reply to "Re: Differences between UROG and UPC Oneness?" A.U., You write David’s team were not happy with the idea set forth in my book that Christ was anointed. I don't see that the words you quote support this. It seems to me that he had no argument with Christ being anointed, but rather that he thought your work lost sight of the fact that in addition to this he was also God. Also, what I was getting at was the differences between UROG and UPC theology. Your posting seems to address the differences between trinitarianism and your present beliefs. It is not even clear to me that you still hold to the Chapel theology of Jesus being fully man and fully God. Sincerely, Steve ---------- Re: Excuse me? To Dave and Steve Posted by Author Unknown on 6/29/2001, 2:52 pm , in reply to "Excuse me?" I got off to a bad start. I spent the night in the hospital the other night and right now I am under some heavy medication. Looking over my post, I can see that I want to address this issue with a clear mind. And the medications have left me in a dream state. I do have a very clear understanding of the God-head issue. It could be slightly different from the Chapel veiw. I need a few more days to get through this shock to my body and get clear from the medication. At that time I will sit down and share my understanding of the nature of God and His Christ. ---------- Re: Excuse me? I was stung by a bee Posted by Author Unknown on 6/30/2001, 3:34 pm , in reply to "Re: Excuse me? To Dave and Steve" Bee Careful: The last thing I did Tuesday night was dedicate the rest of my life to Jesus Christ in prayer. I had no idea what a short time I had left to live. In the middle of the night I was stung by a bee. It woke me up. I turned on the light and saw it on the sheets. Within ten minutes I was in serious trouble with hives all over my body. I was throwing up, my eyes had turned to blood, my skin was blotchy and my breathing was shutting down. It got worse. My throat closed. With my last breath I asked my roommate to dial 911. Medic One saved my life that night. I am still recovering. One thing I have learned is to Bee Careful. ---------- from the Incarnation viewpoint Posted by Steve M on 6/28/2001, 10:49 pm , in reply to "Differences between UROG and UPC Oneness?" The dual nature doctrine, exemplified by "...sleep one minute and calm the storm the next minute....", begs questions about the many examples of humans doing miraculous works in Scripture. For example, if calming the storm is an example of Jesus as Deity, what of Matthew 10:8 - "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Were the disciples who received this commission "god-men", acting as Deity, when they raised the dead? "He could speak as man one moment and then as God the next moment..." Really? I'm sure that one example of his speaking as God would be "before Abraham was, I Am..". Well Isaiah said, "..I AM the LORD your God.."(43.3). Does that mean Isaiah is God? No, for the context clearly indicates that as a prophet he was God's spokesman. This is reiterated by Heb 1.1 - "God ...spoke...in the prophets..." The next verse goes on to say, "...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son..." I submit that Heb 1.1,2 provides context for interpreting words of Jesus, including "before Abraham was, I AM." God's Son, besides all the other things that he is, is a prophet - God's spokesman in these last days. God said, "I AM" in the burning bush, but we don't speak of the dual nature of the burning bush, or that the bush is fully bush and fully God. It was a bush, in which God spoke. And God, speaking in his son, said, "I AM." No dual nature theory is necessary to interpret this. The statement of Jesus in Jn 14.10 is quite adequate: "...The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works." The following words of Steve B's I agree with: "I do not believe it is Biblical to picture Jesus as acting (or speaking) either “as God” or “as man.” He simply acts or speaks as Jesus, the Son of God. But both Don and the UPC have to make a distinction in the modes in which Jesus can act or speak in order to get their theology to work." Since Jesus and the Father are one, we see the Father when we see Jesus. John 17 indicates that the Father and His Son should be seen in us when we are one, too. ---------- Posted by Steve B. on 6/29/2001, 7:33 am , in reply to "from the Incarnation viewpoint" Steve, Your comments are an interesting illustration of what I regard as a step backward from UROG, but what I am wondering is what others see as the step between the UPC version of Oneness and UROG. That is the step I am wondering about here. Am I correct in thinking the only significant difference is more of an emphasis on Jesus as man? If so, it is interesting to me that (as your comments indicate) a fair number of Chapel adherents have taken the next step and discarded the belief in Jesus' deity. Sincerely, Steve ---------- Posted by Steve M on 6/29/2001, 10:30 am , in reply to "Re: from the Incarnation viewpoint" Hi Steve, I think the method of harmonizing the dual nature varies greatly between various adherents of Oneness. Many of them do emphasize either the Deity or humanity to the exclusion of the other. So, yes, among non-Trinitarian, dual nature adherents the difference is the degree of emphasis on Jesus as man, from my view. For me, discarding the dual nature theory was a result of going back to the beginning, i.e. starting fresh with the Scriptures. There I find God fully dwelling in a man. Earnestly, SM ---------- P.S. re Robert Sabin Posted by Steve M on 6/29/2001, 10:34 am , in reply to "Re: from the Incarnation viewpoint" Sabin and Nathaniel Urshan of the UPC once debated Walter Martin and Calvin Beisner on the John Ankerburg show. I watched the video of it with a trinitarian pastor, and felt that Walter Martin dominated the debate. ---------- Posted by Keith on 6/29/2001, 10:42 am , in reply to "Re: from the Incarnation viewpoint" When Jesus said "My God My God why has thou forsaken me?" Jesus himself denied his own Deity. When Jesus said "I can do nothing of myself only what the Father shows me" Jesus denied his own Deity. When Jesus in heaven speaks of his God, Jesus denies his Deity, because there is only one singular God and Jesus differentiates and subordinates himself from this one God. Col 1:19-20. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. This Scripture denies Jesus' Deity and I could go on and on. This again, to reiterate and emphasis is the answer: JN 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."). This answers "Before Abraham was I Am." This answers any Scripture that places Divinty upon Jesus. Clear straight forward Scriptures defend my position, little to no explanation is needed.