Posted by CB on 8/15/2001, 12:53 pm

begotten god, not begotten Deity Posted by Steve M on 6/22/2001, 12:08 am , in reply to "Jn 1:18 only begotten god" Hi Cliff, Steve Maxwell here. Good to hear from you! I'm gonna jump in here, hoping not to engage in any tautology - I love that new word that Steve B just added to my vocabulary, hope I can find opportunity to use it sometime! First, the word "god", translating elohim or theos, does not always refer to Deity. For example: I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Psalm 82:6), About this verse, Jesus said, "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"(John 10:35). A begotten Deity is a problem, it seems to me, for either the Trinitarian or the traditional Oneness position. But a begotten "god", in the broadest sense of the word "god" is no problem at all. And Jn 1.18 is an example of "god" referring, not to Yahweh, but to His son. But "God" is most often, though not exclusively, used of Deity, namely Yahweh, the one and only Deity. The key for me is to look at the Scriptures afresh without the dual nature doctrine as a beginning premise. With that in mind, I make the following assertions, which I believe will be readily agreed to by a biblically literate group. 1. Jesus is the temple of God. 2. God was in Christ. 3. All the fullness of God's essence dwells in Christ's body. 3a. Jesus received the Spirit without measure. 4. The Deity in Christ was the Father. 5. God speaks to us in Christ, in the same way He has spoken in the prophets. 6. The Father is greater than Christ. 7. Jesus didn't do mighty works of his own power, but by the power of the Father in him. 8. To see Jesus is to see the Father. 9. Jesus and the Father are one; and Jesus prayed that the saints would be one as he and the Father are one. (which does not make us deity) 10. The man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and man. 11. God gave Jesus all power in heaven and earth. 12. God made Jesus Lord and Christ. 13. God spoke prophetically to Jesus, saying, "thy throne, oh God" From these assertions, together with other Scriptures, I deduce: 1. The Bible teaches the Deity IN Christ, not the Deity OF Christ. 2. The authority Jesus has is a result of the Father's exalting him, not of he himself being Deity by nature. 3. The apparent pre-existence of Christ is explained by the fact that God speaks of things that are not as though they were. God, unlike us, is not bound by time. 4. God is still past finding out. Differing Christological positions needn't divide God's people if we can avoid repeating the historical example of slaying one another over such matters. 5. We are partakers of (a measure of) the divine nature. That doesn't make us Deity. It does make us part of Christ's Body, Jesus being the Head. There is a revelation to be seen if one contemplates the fullness of Deity dwelling in Christ's Body. 6. All this stuff comes under the category of "doubtful disputations", by which I do not mean it shouldn't be discussed. But though I prefer a distinction between "Deity IN Christ" and "Deity OF Christ", I could also say the Jesus might as well be Deity, by nature, insomuch as whoever receives Jesus, receives the Father. On the other hand, Jesus told his disciples that, "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."(Mt 10:40). So the unity involving the Father, Jesus, and us, is (or should be) such that we all come together in one package, irregardless of Christology. I must say, though, that receiving Jesus and his Father by receiving a disciple does not make that disciple "god", except maybe in the non-deity sense of the word. Thanks, SM ---------- Posted by Steve B. on 6/22/2001, 1:57 pm , in reply to "begotten god, not begotten Deity" Steve, I think I've addressed the gist of this posting in my other postings above, but I do see one additional thing in this one that I'd like to comment on. You write 3. The apparent pre-existence of Christ is explained by the fact that God speaks of things that are not as though they were. God, unlike us, is not bound by time. This is not adequate grounds for disallowing Christ's pre-existence. The more I looked at the Biblical evidence for his pre-existence, the more I became impressed with its strength, and with the weakness of the claim you make here (which of course is not yours but is textbook Chapel doctrine). The pre-existence of Christ is not based only on things that God says of Jesus, but also on things that Jesus says about himself and that the disciples say about him that do not fit the category of “speaking of things that are not as though they were.” Here are a few examples: John 17:5 - Jesus asks the Father to give him the glory that he had with the Father before the world was. This indicates that Jesus has a conscious memory of conditions before the creation of the world, and that he existed at that time disticnt from the Father. John 6:62 - Jesus tells his followers that he will ascend up to where he was before. Since the ascension was a literal ascension to a literal personal existence in heaven with the Father, the most straightforward meaning of the verse would be that "where he was before" was the same kind of existence. John 16:28 - Jesus tells his disciples that he came from his Father into the world, and that now he was leaving the world to go the Father. The leaving of the world and the return to the Father did not mean the end of his existence as a distinct person separate from the Father. The parallelism of the verse leads to the conclusion that neither did his entry into the world mean the beginning of his existence as a distinct person separate from the Father. John 8:58 - Jesus, in response to an explicit challenge about his own age, tells the Jews that "Before Abraham was, I am." This speaks for itself. Philippians 2:5-8 - Paul states that Jesus was in the form of God before being made in the likeness of men. Not only does this directly show pre-existence, but the passage also shows Jesus making a conscious decision to humble himself to be found in fashion as a man, establishing that his existence was not merely figurative or prophetic but a concious personal existence. Hebrews 7:5 - The author of Hebrews states that the Son of God has neither beginning of days nor end of life. This (for one who also had a known human life span) necessarily implies pre-existence. Sincerely, Steve ---------- Posted by Cliff Bisch on 6/24/2001, 10:08 pm , in reply to "Re: begotten god, not begotten Deity" Steve B. Well, to stir things up again. My perception lines up with Lanny and Steve Maxwell (what's Maxwell's son's name again? Effie says hi) and is particularly summed up by "God in Christ". So since Steve B. uses the logos a lot...I see the logos as the common greek definition of the work (shocking, eh?) The greeks use logos as an idea or concept, kept internal or outwardly expressed. I can see that all through John 1 and have no problem with Yahweh have an idea, concept plan through which he laid down all creation, that the focal point of his plan was his son to be born of Mary...Why does this sound so odd? The Old Testament Yahweh remains intact in all details. The Jews were right in their perception of their God. Yahweh had a plan that they acted out in all the laws and ceremonies. Then finally, in the fullness of time, he had a son, just as much a man as Adam, if not more so. This "cult of oneness" is consistent with Judaism and Islam. Even Islam maintains a completely numerical One God. Isn't it peculiar that there is a veil over the eyes of the Jews so that they cannot see Christ and the Gospel? Yet they clearly see their own scriptures? And the end times will not come into place until "my people know My name." The Trinity, covering the vast majority of Christians, does also make a good veil from understanding the truth of who he is. I was saved in 1978 in Earl Faylor's UROG class. My wife asked me to go. About the third class meeting, I understood to the depth of my heart, who Christ is. The Trinity and Catholicism had obscured any kind of direct relationship for me. It was just like a river of clear water had washed through my mind. And I changed direction at that point. Who He is has been the center of my Christian life ever since. Since he is resurrected, how would you describe His manhood now? And what is God's name for you anyway?