Posted by SB on 4/24/2001, 2:20 pm

Posted by David Sandoval on 4/1/2001, 9:02 pm , in reply to "A New Thing in the Church" Here is an example of the lack of information I received while attending the Chapel. I understand that I was only a teenager at the time. But I lived with the pastor of the Kansas branch. I would think that I would have heard about this, but I didn't. I don't know if he just didn't tell me, the church, or if he didn't even know. I have mixed feelings about it. Part of me is angry that I didn't get told about these things that were going on, and part of me is fine with it because what good what it have been to tell me? Perhaps I should have been told and could have made my own decisions accordingly. I am not wanting to treat this tragedy lightly. It was a horrible thing that happened. As I read this post, I wondered if Michael is saying that the Chapel made her pull the trigger or if he is saying the Chapel, and ultimately Don, is responsible for her death? Also, he wrote that he left the church and prayed for judgement to come. I wondered if this was the right attitude? Would God have wanted him to stay and pray that we would get back on course? I don't know many people who were praying that we would get back on course. It seemed that most of us were too busy praying about our connections, the lack of connections, etc. It also struck me that so many of us were caught up in "the love of God" yet so few of us displayed much of this "love" to anyone other than our connections. A tragedy, wasn't it? ---------- Michael's testimony Posted by lanny on 4/2/2001, 12:34 am , in reply to "Re: A New Thing in the Church" Because of the comments by David I feel I should say that the comments by Michael are entirely onesided and do not acurately portray the motives and reasons about things said and done at that time. This suicide was a horrible thing. I am not saying that the direction the whole church was going did not create the stressful environment she was enduring. At the same time things were being done to try to help her as well. Michael writes as though he is the only sane thinking person in the room. May I ask what his spiritual life has been like for the past 10 years? I find that people on every side of the issue can either be in the pit of bitterness and backslidden or now in the ministry. You can find people from one end of the spectrum to the other. My point is that it doesn't really matter NOW who was right or wrong in 1985. The only thing that matters is what God is doing in your life today. When I write that the Chapel is but a chapter in our lives, I am refering to the vast majority who may live until they are 80. There are hurting Christians all over the world. Gene Edwards wrote that the average church splits every 4 years. The point is not to be insensative but to call us to see the larger picture. We have a whole life to live. How tragic is it for one part of it to ruin the rest? The Old Testament is full of rebuke to backsliding Israel. At the same time there are promises of restoration and GREATER future glory in almost every chapter by these same prophets of rebuke. Get the revelation! Restoration is occurring to many all around us. Call them up and have them lay hands on you. Don't stop short of the promise. Come out of the wilderness and the Jordan will open. Lanny ---------- Posted by Joe Geertz on 4/4/2001, 7:31 pm , in reply to "Michael's testimony" God is doing much in the land today and many are being set free. In PA we are seeing tremendous things by the hand of God in the mainline denominational churches. We see those that have struggled in life finally come to grips with reality and accept the Lord. We see a man driving down the road and all of a sudden is baptised in the Holy Ghost. We are seeing those that have been bound in traditional religon break the chains of bondage and walk in freedom. We see the Holy Spirit moving powerfully in the youth and bringing forth revival. We see outreaches developing and going forth world wide. All I can say is "let in rain Lord, for it is time for the latter rain" If you would like, look and see what God has done in the past 4 months. Check us out at www.beyondbeliefministries.org We are moving on with the gospel and the teaching that is wanting to be recieved. God Bless all of you! Pray that God would continue to move us forward in the Spirit. Link: Beyond Belief Ministries http://www.beyondbeliefministries.org/ ---------- comment Posted by lanny on 4/1/2001, 11:57 pm , in reply to "A New Thing in the Church" This tragic testimony was fortunately only true for a very few. And I believe that God granted us much grace during those stressful times. By and large most people suffered loss but today continue on with God. The tone of Michael's comments portray one who is cynical and perhaps bitter. He is in need of healing every bit as much as those who were hurt. On another positive note: I talked with Karl Martin tonight. He is leaving to start a Bible college in Uganda. He suffered loss during that time but today God is doing another "new thing." I see or hear something like this almost every week. While some continue to mourn the demise of CC, God has been fulfilling the many promises we had been given over the years. The vast depth of training we have all been given shall surely go forth. The entire Old Testament is a testimony of "new things." Each generation was called to go beyond that of their fathers. Lanny ---------- Posted by Steve B. on 4/2/2001, 10:36 am , in reply to "comment" Lanny, You write The entire Old Testament is a testimony of "new things." Each generation was called to go beyond that of their fathers. Although I can think of a few Old Testament episodes that might be characterized in that way, I would hardly call it a pattern. It certainly did not happen in “every generation.” It seems to me that, much more frequently, the Lord had to send prophets to Israel to recall them to the straight path of the Word that their leaders and priests had forgotten. Eventually, when the nation had repeatedly refused to heed the Word, it had to be destroyed as a sign to the whole world of the results of such a refusal. The problem wasn't that there were no Israelites following calls to go beyond their fathers into new experiences with God. The problem was that they were the wrong kind of calls, the wrong kind of experiences, and the wrong kind of god. I think the same thing was played out in the history of the Chapel, and that reactions such as michael's were much more a result of the true moving of the Spirit than the experiences others were allegedly having with God that supposedly justified the whole thing. You also write The tone of Michael's comments portray one who is cynical and perhaps bitter. He is in need of healing every bit as much as those who were hurt. I don't deny that in the least. I think he had reason to be. But don't shoot the messenger. Deal with the content of what he says. He portrays the Chapel's problems in its last three years very accurately. I didn't even know about this “tragic testimony” at the time, but I knew the same bizarre atmosphere. Something had gone deeply and fundamentally wrong. If the steering in my car goes out, and I narrowly miss getting killed because of it, I am definitely going to find out what caused the steering to go out and fix it before I climb back in that car. It wasn't anything wrong with me that caused the steering to fail (unless it was neglecting to act on the observation that the car had been handling strangely)—it was something wrong with the car. I don't need healing because of it, but the car certainly does. And if as a result of the whole episode, I become aware of a fundamental design flaw in some kinds of cars that causes them to lose their steering, I am not going to ride in that kind of car again. The ride I went on at the Chapel was wild enough to last me for a lifetime, and I don't care to repeat the experience, thank you. I'm not going to forget the flaw just because ten or more years have passed, and go for another ride in the same kind of car. I don't call that camping in traditon, much less do I call that bitterness or blame. I call that learning from experience. Sincerely, Steve ---------- I'm amazed at the gross misrepresentation of Oneness in the HUGE logical fallacy Posted by Anon.II on 4/2/2001, 2:40 pm , in reply to "Re: comment" Guilt by association is purely a logical fallacy that proves no merit on it's own as to why Oneness is to blame for Chapel's mistakes. Does Lanny even try to get out of the fact that Chapel is to blame for many of the wrongs that happened there? I'm ashamed of my previous affiliations with Trinitarian churches just as much as what happen at Chapel, as I've mentioned before, I've seen the same sins in them. This is just an attempt to cast shame on Oneness because of the sins of men. Though Steve says he's not bitter, these constant accusations only speak of bitterness to me. Those who have not seen Michael's post before, need to see it, but it still does not incriminate Oneness, but is rather a illogical attempt to make Oneness "SEEM" like it is the cause without proof. Where are we taught from the bible that righteous men will not sin? The bible says a just man will fall MANY MANY TIMES IN A DAY. Where are we taught from the bible that correct theology will result in PERFECT MEN? The bible says all have sinned and have fallen short of the grace of God, and if we say that we have no sinned we deceive ourselves.