Posted by A2 on 4/17/2001, 3:31 pm

Not much to say except.... Posted by Dave Kenady on 3/31/2001, 2:22 am , in reply to "Re: Well...not really." All this talk of persons and natures. I will say that you Steve are the most interesting trinitarian I have spoken with. And you have given me some food for thought. I am particularly interested in the idea of the Athanasian creed's idea of Jesus having the same substance as His Father. This is something that interests me because Jesus' Father was literally God, so I suppose in some sense He would be of the same substance, just like I am of the same substance as my father. But most of the discussion has convinced me of only one thing: this is not an expose of a horrible deception that we at the Chapel had fallen into. In my view, a lot of the discussion is just splitting hairs over unclear scriptures. And it is also a discussion based on 2 conflicting sets of scriptural foundations. I still see the foundational basics of the nature of God as defining who Jesus is and isn't. You no longer do. But I also don't see this as sufficient enough to topple my view. You see the Oneness view as a weakness that helped topple the Chapel. I don't. I am content to view us as having a different opinion about the nature of Jesus Christ. But most Trinitarians, probably because they are in the vast majority, view their opinion as "my way or the highway". But what do I know. These days, I am not even that impressed with the scriptures themselves because I'm extremely weary of continually observing that if you have 3000 people read the Bible, you come up with 3000 different ideas of what the book says. When one is reduced to extracting phrases out of a conversation between 2 people to establish a theological point -- what's up with that? No wonder the church has been arguing these things for thousands of years. It isn't clear in the church because it isn't clear in the Bible. The Bible speaks of its own inadequacy -- looking through a glass darkly. So why argue about it? ---------- I know you've read the following creeds Posted by Anon.II on 4/2/2001, 10:45 am , in reply to "Re: Well...not really." What is absolutely FALSE is that "you’ve written only that I am not aware that any of my statements have strayed from it”. I challenged you to support yourself from orthodoxy in my post: Asserting without support - Anon.II 3/21/2001, 10:29 am. You then quoted commentary that claimed orthodoxy as YOUR POSITION, instead of “established orthodoxy” and said: “ Now it's your turn to document your claims that my statements have deviated from "orthodox" Trinitarian doctrine.” in your post: Support - Steve B. 3/21/2001, 1:09 pm Now you are saying that you ONLY said: “I am not aware that any of my statements have strayed from it” (orthodoxy). You claimed orthodoxy through 20th century opinions, and I expected “established orthodoxy”. Your claim that “you are not aware that any of my (Steve’s) statements have strayed from it;”, was simply a weak attempt to try and shift the burden of proof and only demonstrated to me that your case was weak. If you laid no claim to orthodoxy, why argue about it. This would have only proved my point long ago that you are asserting a form of Trinitarianism that is not orthodox. Of the following creeds, where is it taught that Jesus' person is both human and divine? The Text of the Athanasian Creed Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord. For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved. ---------- The Apostles' Creed Posted by Anon.II on 4/2/2001, 10:46 am , in reply to "Re: Well...not really." The Apostles' Creed The basic creed of Reformed churches, as most familiarly known, is called the Apostles' Creed. It has received this title because of its great antiquity; it dates from very early times in the Church, a half century or so from the last writings of the New Testament. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. [see Calvin] The third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen. *The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ. ---------- The Nicene Creed Posted by Anon.II on 4/2/2001, 10:48 am , in reply to "Re: Well...not really." The Nicene Creed We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.