Posted by Illuminati on 7/23/2005, 1:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Long but worth reading..." If the Taliban aren't your ideal, perhaps you can tell us which Muslim country you think is the ideal we should copy. It is one thing to have a private belief system, another thing to try to impose it on other people. Before that happens, you should be willing to show us how it actually works in the real world and why we should want to change to your system. "Unfortunately Muslims have not tried to turn back to it, they've turned away from it which is how they've managed to "ruin their culture" and bring disgrace to the Muslim world." I'm not sure what you mean by this. How about Saudi Arabia, they jail Christians for having religious meetings in their own homes, make women veil in public with religious police to enforce the rule, and have strict separation between men and women. Saudi Arabia can in no sense be considered "Western" except that they have officially abandoned slavery since about 1960 because of international pressure. They spend billions of dollars supporting the most Salafist movement in the world and spread their ideology around the world. What else could they possible do to fulfill your desires? ""I understand early Islam was actually a period of severe infighting, brutality, and repeated assassination of the Caliphs."" That was a time of violent jihad against the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians and Buddhists. Is that what you want? What about demonstrating to the rest of us exactly what Islam is capable of accomplishing by forming decent, free progressive societies, in the many countries already dominated by Muslims, which other people can admire and would actually want to live in? ""I understand your point and when I made that statement I expected that response." Why not? If I'm trying to understand Islam, the most important part of understanding is recognizing what motivates people. Your forceful response reveals a great deal. ""You have made it clear that your idea of God precludes loving people who oppose your viewpoint."" That is one of the unique and interesting aspects of Islam. ""I wish some of our multiculturalists would read posts like this and realize that there is one religion which can not and will not see goodness in other people and has no intention of peacefully coexisting with other people."" Do your non-Muslim "friends" know you consider them unworthy of love because they aren't Muslim? Your definition of "friendship" is apparently smiling at people and acting nice on the surface, like a business relationship or a work relationship where there is no genuine love but a superficial amiability due to common interests. On the other hand, people I consider my friends love me and I love them, otherwise I do not consider them "friends" just "acquaintances." ""My understanding is that you are trying to prove medically that women were incompetent to serve as witnesses for contracts between people unless there were two of them to equal one man."" I must have missed your "scientific" evidence. Did you quote a published peer reviewed scientific paper that actually stated women are not qualified to serve as witness to a contract because they menstruate? Please forgive me if you provided such an article, and I didn't see it. As I have said, women in Western society daily serve as witnesses with no problem whatsoever. They are often licensed as "notaries public" or licensed witnesses and serve ably. If there were any scientific validity to your argument at all, women should be barred from serving as notaries public and their licenses immediately revoked since they would be incompetent. However, those I know perform that job on a daily basis with no difficulty whatsoever. The burden of proof is on you to prove they can not do what we see them doing every day. ""If the Koran said there should be two men to replace one woman as witnesses to the contract then it would be closer to reality."" The true test of unusual insight is to go contrary to prevailing opinion and be correct. If a man in the 7th century had actually gone against culture and praised women for their superior verbal abilities, that would have been noteworthy. Actually, both men and women are fully competent to perform the simple task of witnessing contracts; there are male and female licences notaries public. ""I'm not sure why my motivation matters. I haven't asked you why you and other Muslims post."" Has the owner told you he or she is unhappy with my posts? I'm not sure who set this site up but as on "open challenge," I assume it is open to all comers. When I started posting, there were several Christians as well as Muslims posting. If it was meant to be a private conversation there was no indication of this fact. "You don't seem to want to learn about Islam. All we've seen you do so far is disprove the Quran and try to convert Muslims by posting things like 'validity of the Bible' etc. The damage and suffering is caused by people misunderstanding and misinterpreting scriptures and also unaccepting and disrespecting other people's beliefs. Anyway, there's not much you can learn from a message board, a lot of the posts contain biased views and sometimes incorrect information so if you really wanted to learn about Islam and get accurate information you'd look at Islamic websites, books etc." Actually I've "read Muslim websites, books" etc. When I came onto this site the Muslims were posting links to anti-Christian propaganda sites, were doing their best to discredit the Christians and to convert people to Islam, so I'm not sure what you are complaining about. You and the other Muslims seemed happy with the "Open Challenge" when you thought things were going your way. My interest has been to intellectually engage those posting here, examine their information, to provide factual and logical responses, and to learn as much as I can about Islam and the thought processes of it's practitioners. I can only assume your major complaint is that things aren't going all your direction right now. Someone is actually challenging your ideas and your beliefs for a change and you don’t like it. In Muslim countries those things simply don’t happen do they?
206.206.120.230
""Just how bad does it have to get in Muslim countries before you will give up this idea? Iran is a fundamentalist regime and they have no freedom, huge corruption, and a serious drug problem. Do you think the Taliban are the ideal society?""
"What idea?? The countries you mentioned are those I referred to in my post and no, I don't think Taliban are the ideal society!"
"It was also a period of victory during which Islam spread across Asia, Africa and parts of Europe."
"Oh well, maybe you shouldn't have made it in the first place!"
"My idea of God precludes loving those who go against God's plan and encourage corruption on earth, those who are the inhabitants of hell!"
"What are you talking about?! You are mixing different issues with each other. I have to say that my next-door neighbors are non-muslims and we live next to each ohter in peace and harmony and yet we don't love each other. I have a lot of non-muslims friends and I see goodness in most of them but I don't necessarily 'love' them. You need to get your views right because I think it's people like you who have no intention of 'peacefully coexisting with other people' and respecting their beliefs."
"I provided some medical evidence to explain (scientifically) why it is that the Quran says two female witnesses are equivalent to only one male witness and you tried your best to prove me wrong providing no evidence at all."
"What do you base this statement on?"
"It matters to me! This message board is based on an open challenge to all Muslims. The early posts were mainly answering a question asked by the board's owner about a statement in the Quran. People then started posting about other things and the whole subject changed."
Message Thread:
« Back to thread