Posted by Illuminati on 7/20/2005, 9:23 am, in reply to "Re: Long but worth reading..." "I completely disagree! I think one of the worst disadvantage of Muslim majority countries today is their inability to follow the actual teachings of Islam, dividing themselves into unnecessary groups, permitting things which are prohibited in Islam and visa versa, ignoring the prophet's sunnah and making up their own etc..." Just how bad does it have to get in Muslim countries before you will give up this idea? Iran is a fundamentalist regime and they have no freedom, huge corruption, and a serious drug problem. Do you think the Taliban are the ideal society? The only Muslim countries which are doing well are those which have suppressed the Salafist movement and tried to move their people into modernity. By trying to turn back to the illusion of a perfect time in the seventh century Muslims have managed to ruin their culture and bring abject and increasing poverty to their people. I understand early Islam was actually a period of severe infighting, brutality, and repeated assassination of the Caliphs. "Firstly to correct you, Muslim women and those of other religions are NOT sisters!" I understand your point and when I made that statement I expected that response. You have made it clear that your idea of God precludes loving people who oppose your viewpoint. I wish some of our multiculturalists would read posts like this and realize that there is one religion which can not and will not see goodness in other people and has no intention of peacefully coexisting with other people. When we demonize other people that gives us the excuse to commit crimes against them with a clean conscience. Every movement which has committed crimes against humanity has first reclassified those who are the targets of their persecution as somehow less than human. You seem to have moved far down that pathway. "Secondly, unless Christian, Jewish or Hindu women have more than one brain, more than two eyes, arms and legs and can fly, I don't see how Muslim women can't perform as well as them!" Jewish, Hindu, Christian women routinely perform verbal tasks at a level which exceeds those of men. However from your posts it appears Muslim women are informed they can't do those things because God said it is not possible. If someone believes strongly enough in something it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. "Islam does not prevent women from serving as doctors, businesswomen, judges etc." I believe there was a time 1,000 years ago when Islam was more open than it is now and more successful although not nearly as good as apologists try to pretend. Unfortunately, every "reform" movement in Islam seems to take it deeper into fundamentalist ideology and less in contact with humanity. Until Muslims learn to see goodness and appreciate those outside their own community, I don't see any prospect of that changing. "Yes, maybe you're right. Some Islamic societies do try to make women much inferior to men but that must not be linked with Islam because Islam gives women rights and in the sight of Allah both men and women are equal." In order to avoid admitting that some statements in the Koran and hadiths are culturally conditioned and not a reflection of God's perfect understanding, you yourself have had to explain why women are biologically incapable of performing certain verbal tasks which they clearly can do very well. So long as you hold a rigid fundamentalist ideology, you will be forced into this stance. If you have an entire society which holds the same position, women are debased. "Of course it takes faith first to believe that it was dictated by God. As for me, I wouldn't doubt for a second that God dictated it because I believe that it's absolutely impossible for ANY human being or any other living creature to produce anything similar to the Quran. It's unique in being the only scripture that is free of scientific inaccuracies, whose historical authenticity can be verified and whose text has been so carefully preserved that just one authorised version (in Arabic) exists. The quran is also the only holy book that can be memorised in its entirety by people of all ages and intellectual abilities – including non-Arabic speakers – which Muslims consider to be one of its miracles and I'm experiencing this miracle while I'm trying to memorise it." The faith comes first, than the attempts to rationalize the impossible. No matter how strongly we believe something, that doesn't make it true, reality remains the same. The final test is what kind of individual and what kind of society results from the ideology one is embracing. If the fruits are bad, there is a problem with the ideology no matter how strongly it is held. "I think I pointed out that it does not make them in any way inferior. However, it does show their differences since that's the way God created us, Males and females with different kinds of abilities to build up society." I agree women and men are different. However to properly use their differing abilities we have to have accurate information about what those differences really are. Also there is much variability among individuals so making rules which assume that each person in a group is the same is same is going to be counterproductive. ""The "short term memory loss" of the premenstrual syndrome is not total amnesia or anything close to it."" My understanding is that you are trying to prove medically that women were incompetent to serve as witnesses for contracts between people unless there were two of them to equal one man. That simply is not the case and the majority of medical research does not support that position. Not only are men just as good at that type of task, they are better. If the Koran said there should be two men to replace one woman as witnesses to the contract then it would be closer to reality. If that was what the Koran said, then you could make the case that it had unusual insight. "Anyway, i'll explain them some other but there are a few things I'd like to know first before we go any further. Why are you so interested in knowing exactly every single thing about Islam? You spent a heck of a lot of time posting here asking questions (and answering them yourself!), giving your own views about Islam, arguing about certain things etc." "It sort of appears to me that you're either trying to convert Muslims or convert yourself, am I right??" I'm not sure why my motivation matters. I haven't asked you why you and other Muslims post. However, my motivation is based on a love for humanity. Whether you convert or not is your own business, however I do plan to learn as much about Islam as possible to avert as much of the damage and suffering this fundamentalist ideology has caused. "Another thing, are you interested in other religions as much as you are in Islam? I mean do you go into a Jewish or a Hindu forum and ask questions and argue the way you do here? Perhaps if you answered those questions it'd be easier for me to help you get to your target without wasting my time or yours." Whether I waste my time is my choice, and how you spend your time is your choice. Who I talk to is my business only. However, I will answer your question this way, I have Hindu, Buddhist and Jewish friends whom I talk to and respect.
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"one of the worst disadvantage of Muslim majority countries today is their inability to adjust to the realities of modern life."
"I never said it was. Judging by your responses you don't seem to have understood fully the point I was trying to make by quoting those medical references."
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