Posted by Illuminati on 5/7/2005, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Re: More Miracles in Islam" As with so much of Islamic propaganda literature, this missive you have posted misrepresents the position held by your opponants to bolster the position of Islam. I will quote a few snippets from your post which seem to summarize your argument and offer my response. 1."The image of Eve as temptress in the Bible has resulted in an extremely negative impact on women throughout the Judaeo-Christian tradition. All women were believed to have inherited from their mother, the Biblical Eve, both her guilt and her guile. Consequently, they were all untrustworthy, morally inferior, and wicked. Menstruation, pregnancy, and childbearing were considered the just punishment for the eternal guilt of the cursed female sex...." Although the Bible story about the fall of Adam and Even can be interpreted negatively for Eve it doesn't justify your conclusion which greatly overstates your case. Your original argument that there is a negative tone manifest in some portions of the Bible when discussing women is correct. By large portions of the data, your conclusion is completely wrong. 2. Once again it appears you have overstated your case. From your post it appears Luther didn't care about the welfare women at all, but that is apparently not the case. Since I'm not an authority on Luther I'll post something written by another source who appears more knowledgable. This hardly sounds like Luther or Calvin were men who didn't care if women lived or died. 1. There are two books in the Bible dedicated to women, Ruth the Moabitess who became the ancestor of Israel's greatest king, David and Esther who by her bravery became the savior of the entire nation of Israel. 2. In Judges 4&5 we find one of the Judges of ancient Israel was Deborah, a married woman and a prophetess. Judges has the story of several other brave women who led out in campaigns to free Israel. In the New Testament we have the classic statement of gender equality: Probably the most unbiased opinion regarding the relative position of women in Medieval times is Bernard Lewis, a Jew. In his book, WHAT WENT WRONG? WESTERN IMPACT AND MIDDLE EASTERN RESPONSE. Chapter #3 has much of interest on that topic non of it favorable to your argument. I will quote one sentence from page 66, "Muslim visitors to Europe spoke with astonishment, often with horror, of the immodesty and frowardness of Western women, of the incredible freedom and absurd deference accorded to them, and of the lack of manly jealousy of European males congronted with the immorality and promiscuity in which their womenfolk indulge." I would invite those interested to read the entire book. It is very enlightening. The truth is that women have had considerable respect and freedom in Western Christian society from the beginning. The treatment of women was not perfect and there are certainly some negative strains in the Bible and in quotes from leading Christian men. However, they were treated much better in Christian culture than in Islamic countries or in most pagan lands. This is why women were able to demand and receive equality in Western Civilization unheard of even today in Islamic cultures. Women's freedom in Western society originated in the respect and freedom women received from Christianity. That is the lesson of history.
206.206.120.230
I was going to post a longer discussion of you post but this site limits the length of responses.
Finally, the renowned reformer Martin Luther could not see any benefit from a woman but bringing into the world as many children as possible regardless of any side effects:
"If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there"
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Protestant%20Reformation
...Calvin also sought to improve the life of the society by supporting good hospitals, a proper sewage system, and special care for the poor and infirm. Calvin, as well as Luther, praised women mainly for their roles as mothers and housewives. Calvin's Geneva gained a reputation of being a "women's paradise" because the laws punished men who beat their wives. Unlike previous civilizations, they treated women more importantly than before. They also played an active role in educating the population. Luther pressed for a universal compulsory education for both boys and girls. This illustrates the attitudes of both the reformers on social order. Both placed an importance on women, the ill, and children.
I will now present a few facts from the Bible which don't fit your thesis.
Gal 3:26-28
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
NIV
There is more which could be said but this should suffice for now.
I doubt you will argue against the proposition that women have much more freedom in modern Western countries compared to Islamic countries. For instance, Saudi Arabia certainly isn't a hotbed for women's freedom. Therefore I assume you are arguing that women's freedom is based on secularism and can in no way be attributed to Christianity. If that is your argument, we should find in the Middle Ages a complete role reversal for women compared to today in which the Islamic women were much freer than Christian women and were treated with greater respect. History should settle that issue for us so let us check.
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