Posted by Illuminati on 4/30/2005, 9:27 am, in reply to "Re: More Miracles in Islam" This is something from your previous post which I neglected to pursue, I'm interested in this debate you mention. Can you explain this rasm to me and why some scholars would translate it "leave" instead of "beat?" Is it translated "leave" in other places in the Koran? After reading your post I looked this up in a translation by a man who I consider a moderate straight shooter and he translated it "beat." He then had an entire parenthetical paragraph trying to explain why this passage is actually not as bad as it sounds. If "leave" were an accurate translation, I can't imagine why this man would have put himself into such an uncomfortable position. How do you explain this? ""Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying it is corrupt for society to forbid men to beat their wives?" No you don't! I wasn't talking about wife beating. I was trying to explain the difference between the western and the Islamic points of view on the idea of 'beating'. In many western cultures parents can't even enforce discipline on their own children because of laws that prohibits them to do so, which eventually results in corrupted societies!" I still don't follow you here. If the Koran actually commands wife beatings, which you seem to support, and Western society outlaws it, aren't you stating that Western law is wrong? If God commands one thing and society demands the opposite, is not society corrupt? Regarding child spankings, many Christians don't support the ban on corporal punishment for children as you probably know. I'm of mixed opinions on that issue myself since many times the lessons the children learn from spankings are not the right ones. As time passes I have come to the conclusion that usually striking a child is destructive although there are probably exceptional circumstances. However child abuse, often under the guise of punishment, is a severe problem and causes many injuries and deaths every year. I still think some judgment about their child's needs to be left to the parents. Because children are undeveloped morally it is up to the parents to guide them in a way which is totally inappropriate for an adult. The fact that secularists in the West have gone to the extreme on spanking children doesn't alter the fact that beating the spouse is a morally repugnant activity. The physical and emotional damage spousal abuse does to women and to men (yes it happens & far too often) is real, deep, and totally inexcusable. It is from Hadith!" Which one is it from? As I said before, I don't agree with wife beating for any reason at any time,which is not what Islam teaches anyway. However I do believe that if a woman remains disloyal to her husband after being given two warnings, being physically punished may make her come back to her senses and realise that she's destroying her own family. That's one way to avoid getting a divorce and breaking up a family, especially if kids are involved. If one understands beating a spouse to be spousal abuse, it is best to break up the marriage. The lesson the children learn by seeing the mother abused is almost always very bad. A family based on abuse is not worth saving. "Let's be realistic and not deny the fact that men and women are by nature physically different from each other! Obviously God has given men more physical strength than women and whether a woman is a body builder or whatever, that does not count as natural strenght. So if a woman tries to beat her husband as hard as she can, he'll certainly beat her twice as hard! That's the way we human beings are designed and none can change that, except God himself! Here is how I understand your statement, "because men are stronger and are capable of beating a wife that justifies the behavior and is God's will. Beating the husband is more difficult because often the woman is weaker than the man so therefore woman's beating the man is not God's will." However, I suspect you are unwilling to follow that logic where it naturally leads. If I have the opportunity to overpower a strange woman and have sexual intercourse with her against her will and if I know I won't be punished, does that justify it? If I find property belonging to someone else and take it dosen't my ability to steal it prove it is God's will I have it? Also women can usually harm their spouse if they wish. Men are often sick or injured and depend upon the wife to take care of them. Under those circumstances is it Allah's will for the woman to beat the man since she is stronger than he is? What about a man who has had a stroke or has lost his legs in battle, may his wife beat him when he disobeys her? ""Can you demonstrate from the Koran where women are actually elevated and praised for their role in society?" Well here are a few: This passage just restates and reinforces women's subordinate role in Islamic society. "Reverence Allah through Whom you demand your mutual rights and reverence the wombs (that bore you) for Allah ever watches over you" (4:1) I agree, this appears to be a positive statement about women or at least about their wombs. Islamic society does indeed appear to respect women for their ability to reproduce. "Also in Hadith the prophet states that "Paradise lies at the feet of mothers." " Which hadith is this? I will place this unfinished business at the end while I await your next post. I asked the following question and received the following answer: ""Do you believe you are incompetent to remember an oral contract? Do you lack common sense?" I'll answer those two questions later and I'll explain where you've gone wrong." For this I must wait. Until then, have a nice day.
206.206.120.230
"There is however a disagreement with some Muslim scholars on the interpretation of the word "beat" in the Noble Verse, because it could literally mean "hit" or "leave"."
""I'm curious to learn your source on this one. Is this from a hadity or one of your teachers?"
"Apparently women need beatings at times but the husbands don't. Is that correct? Is that part of the difference between Muslim men and women?"
" 'tis Allah's plan on earth, and ye shall never find a change in it" (Holy Quran)"
"And women have rights similar to the rights against them (the right of men) according to what is equitable and men have a degree over them." (2:228)"
In the above verse Allah commands us to value the role mothers."
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