Posted by Illuminati on 6/27/2009, 9:35 am, in reply to "Uthman's Fires 1"
75.173.17.91
Amir posted:
This is hilarious indeed.
Paul says:".... to eternal life through JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD."
Jesus says:"...he who hears my word and BELIEVES IN HE WHO HAS SENT ME."
According to Paul Jesus is"the Lord".
According to Jesus it is the lord who sent him.
And u are telling me that their teachings are similar?
Absolutely. Incidentally, Amir, mockery does not make your case any stronger. It makes it appear that perhaps you are getting frustrated. Or, perhaps you are trying to appeal to those who have weak minds and are influenced by emotional appeals rather than reason.
Amir said:
""""Jesus' atonement for us is probably the most eloquent message of God's mercy possible. Because He loves us so much, Jesus died for my sins and for yours.""""
Thats what Paul says.
Jesus (pbuh) says:"I desire MERCY NOT SACRIFICE
Amir, unfortunately, ignoring those statements of Jesus' which disagree with your assumptions. Jesus also said:
Matt 20:24-28
24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many ."
NIV
You are free to accuse Jesus of contradicting Himself if you please. I believe that He knew what He was talking about.
Amir posted:
""""Some of these "contradictions" are semantic and not substantive, it seems almost a waste of time to even discuss them. Neither Paul, no any other legitimate church leader in Paul's day tried to supplant Jesus as the Head of the church."""
Whether or not Paul or someone tried to Supplant Jesus is irrelevant.We are concerned only with claims.Paul's claim contradict Jesus and thats a bout it.Whether or not he practised what he said doesn t matter .
In 2 Cor. 1:24
he described his role as being that of a helper and not a leader: "Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are HELPERS of your joy."
But in 1 Cor. 4:15,he puts himself in the place of God.
Amir, didn't you claim that you have God's word in the Koran? If so are you making yourself out to be God? Did Mohammad place himself in the place of God? According to your logic, that seems to be the way it goes.
Let's review Paul's quote again. It speaks for itself.
1 Cor 1:22-25
22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
NIV
Amir posted:
"""As I have pointed out in previous posts, the gospel is contained in the Old Testament. Since Christians believe that the Old Testament contains prophecies about Jesus, they also believe that He is the fulfillment of those prophecies.""""
Paul writes:
Ephesians 2:15:
by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace
If this is true,then the Law must have ceased to be,or to exist.But Jesus states:
I have come not to ABOLISH(note the tense) them but to fulfill them.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this issue. It is not that Paul disagreed with the Old Testament, but that many modern Christians misunderstand what Paul was saying. I can understand why you are puzzled when there are Christians who believe that the Old Testament is no longer valid. Fortunately, replacement theology is no longer prevalent among most conservative Christians.
Amir posted:
"""Paul's statement is extremely important. I believe it is important for me to repeat the message in the gospel. We do righteousness because we are already saved, not in order to be saved. It is easy to misunderstand this principle, and to interpret it as a license to sin.""""
Paul says that the commandment(of the Law of Moses) produces only death.
This contradicts the Word of Jesus, who counseled his questioner to keep the Law of Moses in order to receive eternal life.
It is simple:
According to Jesus,keeping the law (of Moses) brings eternal life.
According to Paul, keeping the law is impossible and attempting to do so only brings death.
Both Jesus and Paul said that we are supposed to keep the law. However, law keeping alone is not adequate to give someone eternal life. At this point, I think it is important to emphasize that this is not just a debating point. People who are reading this need to realize that this truth will have a profound impact on their present life and beyond. It is impossible for a person who has not been "born again" to keep the law. Muslims or Christians who attempt to be saved by keeping the law, and who have not experienced the rebirth, are lost. Let me quote Jesus:
John 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit . 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
NIV
The tragedy is that so many Muslims reject Jesus' teachings, mock the gospel, and try to be saved while in the flesh.
Amir posted:
""Paul is completely in accordance with the prophecy in Isaiah 53. No, Jesus didn't contradict Isaiah 53. If we don't forgive other people, it shows that we have not accepted Jesus' sacrifice for us, and therefore, we can not claim the benefits of His sacrifice."""
Jesus simply said u have to forgive others for god to forgive u.He did not say that u have to believe in him dying for your sins or that by forgiving others u have accepted his sacrifice.
The message in Isaiah still stands.
Amir posted:
"This same principle applies to those who ignore Jesus' teachings and instead say, "I am of Mohammad.""""
The message of Jesus wasn t to the whole of manking.Else he would not have forbidden his disciples to preach his message to the Gentiles.
I follow the prophet Muhammad but u claim to follow Jesus.So why do u prefer Paul's words other his?
I believe this your quote beautifully sums up the majority of Muslims' attitude towards Jesus. They take down Jesus at every level and elevate Mohammad. While they deny they take down Jesus, they reject His teachings when they reject the authority of the Gospels. The same Muslims then claim that His teachings were only a local phenomena, so if there is any truth which managed to work its way into the Gospels, it doesn't apply to them. For those Muslims who are wallowing in unbelief, please listen to what Jesus said and believe:
Mark 16:15-17
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
NIV
Amir said:
""Paul was a very intelligent man. The argument that he would contradict himself within a few paragraphs doesn't make sense. """
U said it,he was a man not God.A man makes mistake,God doesn t.
All Christians believe that Paul was human. They also believe that Mohammad was human.
Amir posted:
""""The argument that millions of Christians have missed obvious contradictions is also highly implausible."""""
This is hilarious.Christians certainly won t acknowledge that Paul contradicted himself.They are going to find good even when he was wrong.Likewise i could apply this reasoning to you.U couldn t find the truth in Islam.So does this mean Islam is not true?Not necessarily because there are others who have found truth in it.This type of reasoning doesn t prove anything.
And i think u are evading the question.What u are saying is that u cannot explain this clear contradiction so instead of explaining it you are changing the topic.It is not necessary to understand the whole book to see that this is a contradiction.
Your are correct I did evade your question. Since you don't believe Paul, and since I don't care whether you believe in Paul, what difference does it make? No one is saved or lost because they believe or don't believe in Paul. People who read Paul's writings to receive understanding will understand what he was saying. The allegation that Paul would contradict himself within a few paragraphs is so implausible that I don't feel it is worth the time to explain what he was saying.
Amir posted:
If he was a humble man as u claim then how do u harmonise his statements??
There is a difference between being humble and being mousey. Paul was a genius who knew a great deal. He was very forceful in defending his beliefs. At the same time, Paul's genius informed him that he was a sinner who was completely dependant on Jesus' sacrifice for his salvation.
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