Posted by Illuminati on 6/22/2009, 9:30 am, in reply to "Re: Jesus' Divinity 4"
75.173.17.91
Amir posted:
The verses from Daniel 7 do not mention Jesus(pbuh).Even if we were to assume that these verses were describing him then they do not prove his divinity.Take a closer look at the first part of the verse:"He was GIVEN authority, glory and sovereign power".
The most important word which people miss for some reasons is in bold.
The word "GIVEN" clearly proves that the one described cannot be God.He was GIVEN everything,so may be u could explain to us how God can be "GIVEN" everything?These verses are describing a human,not God.
As I have already pointed out, Jesus places Himself in this text as the Son of Man. This scene describes Jesus as the ruler of the Universe, who deserves worship. This scene in Daniel is a formal acknowledgement of Jesus' supremacy. It is not for Jesus sake, so that He would know that He owned what was already His, but for our sake that He was formally endowed with the kingdom.
Jesus Himself, acknowledged that He was given His authority. He then turned around and equated Himself with God.
Matt 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
NIV
Amir posted:
""I don't know anyone who believes that in Jesus, God changed His essence. As I have already demonstrated, God has always had the ability to appear in human form. This does not in any way change His essence.""
Those verses u posted did not prove anything.If u still believe that God can appear in human form then the Bible contains a contradiction which u cannot deny.
If God appears in human form,his attributes will change and this cannot hapen according to the Bible.The Bible clearly establishes the fact that no one has seen God so i fail to understand how u can reject for the sake of your own belief.If u prefer your beliefs over the Bible's teachings then u have to explain that.
As I have already demonstrated, the Bible teaches that God has appeared to humans in human form. This is well supported in the Bible. God doesn't have to change His essence to appear as a man. One of God's atributes is that He can appear within our time and space in any form He chooses at any time. This ability is part of God's essence. There is no contradiction.
Amir said:
""Which human prophet will be worshiped by all people?""
Again we have a perfect example of a wrong translation.The actual translation should have been "SERVED" NOT "WORSHIPPED".Counter check it .
Actually either translation is correct. According to my research, in every instance in which Daniel used this particular aramaic word, he used it in reference to service/worship rendered to a God. In other words, all nations are worshiping/serving the son of man as a God.
Amir also posted:
I dont think i have to explain the difference between these 2 words. Serve does NOT mean worship.
I agree with you that the English word, "serve," does not mean "worship." Your statement is perfect correct if the book of Daniel were originally written in English. The flaw in your argument is that you have substituted the Aramaic word with the English word "service," without noticing that you are changing its meaning.
This particular word appears 10 times in the Old Testament, once in Ezra and 9 times in Daniel. In every instance, this particular Aramaic word, is always used to describe worship/serve directed towards a God.
Amir posted:
""Jesus, Himself, believed that only one miracle could serve as a definitive sign of His Messiahship"" And u quoted Luke 11
I am amazed u still believe in that prophecy.
Jonah was swallowed alive by a whale and remained in its belly alive for three days.For Jesus to have properly fulfilled the prophecy, he would need to enter the tomb alive and come out alive.Why should Jesus give this, of all signs,if he was to die and be resurrected?
Ironic, isn t it??
I absolutely believe this parable. By definition, the details in a parable differ from the actual event described. If it did not differ, it would be a literal description, not a parable. Perhaps this parable can serve as a bridge between the Bible and the Koran.
When talking to Lazarus' sister, Mary, Jesus made the following statement:
John 11:23-26
23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die . Do you believe this?"
NIV
When He died, Jesus ended His life with the following converstaion with the crimnal hanging next to Him:
Luke 23:42-46
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
NIV
Although Jesus died physically, His spirit survived His death.
Is it possible that this connects the Biblical account of Jesus' death with this statement in the Koran?
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
I don't know if this is a plausible interpretation of the Koran or not. What I do know is that no could kill Jesus' divine spirit. His body was destroyed on the Cross, but His spirit survived.
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