Posted by Illuminati on 6/21/2009, 7:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Jesus is God 1"
75.173.17.91
In regards to this text, I asked Amir if he thought Mohammad is good:
Luke 18:18-20
18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 "Why do you call me good ?" Jesus answered. "No one is good — except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
NIV
Amir repeated my question and replied:
""I’m curious. As a Muslim, do you believe that Mohammad was good? Would you call him good?""
Yes......
Maybe not but at the same time it is possible that Jesus(peace be upon him) wanted to make it clear that God is one and that he is not God.
Since there is no reasons for us not to take his words literally,it is clear that he teached the uniqueness of God:
Your argument may fit your narrative, but it doesn't fit with the context. If you call Mohammad "good," there is no reason to suppose that the man who called Jesus "good" was wrong. Jesus is good.
It was Jesus who transformed the man's statement into a statement that He, Jesus, is God. The question is why Jesus would deliberately take a neutral statement and turn it into an acknowledgment of His, Jesus', divinity? If Jesus were a common man, why would the thought ever enter His head that the man might be calling Him God.
Amir quoted a number of texts in which Jesus talks about the Father as if the Father were a separate entity from Jesus. I assume that Amir is using those texts are arguments against the divinity of Jesus. We will take a few of these to analyze:
"Jesus answered them and said, 'my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me" (John 7:16)
Since Jesus and His father are one, it is impossible for Jesus to have a doctrine which differs from His father.
'saying, ‘Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done' (Luke 22:42)
This passage provides an interesting insight into the incarnation. Although Jesus' spirit was divine, because He had a human body, He was also human. As a human He was able to suffer just like any other human. His human body naturally shrank back from the terrible sacrifice He was about to undergo. Yet He never hesitated from suffering and dying for our sins.
No one forced Jesus to drink the cup of suffering which our sins had filled. He went to the cross willingly. His Father didn't force Him to do it. His will was and still is God's will.
Another quote:
'I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me' (John 5:30)
Once again, Jesus confirms that His will is identical to God's will.
One more should suffice:
'You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I' (John 14:28)
There is nothing in this passage which contradicts standard Christian theology. Because Jesus is the link between God and humans, His role as our representative is to be subject to the Father. Paul made a similar statement regarding the relationship between Jesus and His Father:
1 Cor 15:24-28
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
NIV
Here is how Paul described the relationship between Jesus and the Father.
Col 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
NIV
One other passage from Paul should clarify the Orthodox Christian understanding of Jesus' relationship with His Father. Jesus' spirit was always divine, but to minister to us He assumed human flesh. By His incarnation, Jesus assumed our station in the universe.
Phil 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death —
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
NIV
Jesus explained the incarnation thus:
John 10:34-39
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
NIV
We have already discussed the first part of this quote. Jesus used His adversaries' fundamentalism against them. If the Bible called ordinary humans “god” once, how could a fundamentalist claim that it was blasphemy for Jesus to call Himself the "Son of God." In the context in Psalms, it is clear that the human “gods” were never gods in true sense. This is clear because their works didn't match their claims.
Ps 82:6-7
"I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."
NIV
On the other hand, when Jesus called Himself the "Son of God," His actions matched His claims. Thus He, and He alone, can properly call Himself, "God" or "Son of God."
Jesus then makes a remarkable statement that the Father is in Jesus and that Jesus is in the Father. We have already discussed God's Holy Spirit which He places within people for a special work. However, Jesus extends the equation to argue the He, Jesus, is also in the Father. In other words, the Father's spirit is in Jesus and Jesus' spirit is in the Father. In this relationship He has placed Himself in an equal reciprocal relationship with the Father. Jesus and the Father are one.
Jesus spoke of His special coequal relationship with the Father on another occasion.
Matt 11:27
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
NIV
One final statement by Jesus should suffice:
John 3:13-18
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
NIV
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