Posted by Illuminati on 6/20/2009, 10:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Paul's Contradictions 2"
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Amir said:
How many christians today practise circumsition?
None.
If a christian today accepts cicumsition then he would be in a position to claim that he is a follower of Jesus(peace be upon him).
If you can demonstrate any connection between the foreskin of the penis and moral behavior, I will be willing to accept your argument. Circumcision was given to Abraham and his family, as a sign of his special status as the founders of Israel. I am unaware of any Bible verse that makes this a universal law. I believe that Jesus had much more important things to do than to worry about the status of people's foreskin.
Your argument does demonstrate the difference between someone who reads the teachings of Jesus to discover truth, and someone who reads them to find points for an argument. Jesus went to great lengths to demonstrate the difference between ritualistic behavior and righteousness. Here is one of those passages:
Matt 23:23-24
23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices — mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
NIV
The pharisees were correct, the law does include rules regarding tithing. Many of them were very careful to tithe, but they were still lost. They didn't understand the difference between rituals and morality.
Amir posted:
Paul has been denounced by theologians and scholars throughout history, the hatred which he incited by his teachings against the Jewish Law, and the political support he gave to the Roman emperors, show how desperate he was to destroy the Nazarene sect, the followers of the early Jesus movement, known as The Way (Acts 9:2, 19:23)
He persecuted the followers of Jesus to please the heart of Popea, but when he failed; he burst into rage, inventing “Christianity” by preaching against the Jewish Law and the doctrines. He produced Christianity for the sole purpose of converting Gentiles. In order to win Gentiles, he became like a Gentile, to win Jews, he became like a Jew. The verse reads:
Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. (1 Corinthians 9:19-21)
I have no doubt that Paul has been denounced. So has Jesus. So was Mohammad. According to your logic, the fact that a teacher is renounced is reason to reject their teachings. Shall we apply the same logic to Mohammad?
Your theory about Paul's motivation is interesting, but of course you have no way to support it with facts. As I have already demonstrated, the gospel is supported in the Old Testament. Neither Jesus, nor His disciples needed to invent it.
Amir posted:
some contradiction:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Romans 3:20)
Contradicted by:
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Romans 2:13
Paul was a very intelligent man. The argument that he would contradict himself within a few paragraphs doesn't make sense. The argument that millions of Christians have missed obvious contradictions is also highly implausible. The Bible was written to support the most simple believer and to nourish the most sophisticated Christian. In your favor, I will admit that it took me a long time to understand the book of Romans, and I am sure I have not yet exhausted the depth of truth in the book.
Amir posted:
Paul wants people to be sinners!
I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 1 Corinthians 7:6-7
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. (1 Tim. 1:15)
Paul testifies there is nothing good in him
Amir, your inability (and the same inability among millions of others)to understand Paul's statement is probably the biggest tragedy in Islam. Muslims are not immune to spiritual pride and arrogance. Here is how Jesus addressed this issue:
Luke 18:9-14
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray , one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men — robbers, evildoers, adulterers — or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NIV
Probably one of the greatest stumbling blocks to salvation is the inability to accept our own sinfulness and our own unworthiness for salvation according to our own righteousness. In God's eyes, we are all sinners.
Amir said:
There are many other contradictions but these would suffice.Now all i want to say to my christian brothers is that:Foolow Jesus(peace be upon him) and not Paul.One has to be blinded by faith to deny that Pauls teachings were were very different from that of Jesus.Even if we assume that he contradicted Jesus in only "some" occasions ,it is still obviuos that these contradictions were in relation with teachings of utmost importance.
I don't accept your claim that there are significant contradictions between Jesus and Paul. However I do agree that if anyone is putting Paul's writings on the same plain or above Jesus' teachings, they should change their approach. Paul supported his teachings from his Bible, the Old Testament. Anyone who cares to understand Paul should set aside any preconceived ideas about what Paul meant. Instead, they should open up the Old Testament and follow Paul's arguments for themselves. Although Paul is one of the most important people in history, he was after all a human being.
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