Posted by Illuminati on 6/20/2009, 10:36 pm, in reply to "Re: The Holy Spirit 1"
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Amir said:
The Qur’an was written down in the lifetime of the Prophet(peace and blessings be upon him).The Prophet(peace and blessings be upon him)used to ask some of his Companions to record the verses as they were revealed.In addition to this,many of the Companions used to learn the Qur’an by heart. Thus,although the Qur’an was compiled in one volume after the Prophet’s death, it was written down during his life.
Immediately let us contrast this to the Gospels.They were NOT WRITTEN during Jesus' lifetime but after his departure as u said yourself.
Professor Hitte also writes:"Biblical text has been subjected to editorial and amendatory treatment, but not the Qur’anic ... In its phonetic and graphic reproduction, as well as in its linguistic form, the Qur’anic text is identical with its celestial original."
Amir, you either don't understand or choose to ignore the boundaries of radical skepticism. Because Christians have been able to document the Bible manuscripts back to the generation who actually knew Jesus, the skeptics have had to resort to the claim that the New Testament writers were fundamentally dishonest.
If we apply the same standards to the Koran, there is no way to prove any of your claims. Since there are no autographs of the Koran it is impossible to know exactly what Mohammad actually said. If we are willing to accuse Jesus' disciples of dishonesty, then it is just as reasonable to accuse the early Muslims of dishonesty. There is plenty of ammunition available to those who wish to take that approach. We have no record that Christians set out to standardize the Bible or to destroy any variant readings. That is exactly what the early Muslims did.
Amir said:
Wrong!Two copies of the original Qur'an from the time of Uthman (pbuh) still exist today, one is in Istanbul and the other in Tashkant. Whosoever is interested, may compare the text of the Qur'an today from any part of the world with these two original copies, he will not find any discrepancy.
Sorry, Amir, it is you who are wrong. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that the Koran which Uthman produced is the original Koran. According to tradition, Uthman tried to standardize the Koran. Apparently, the early Muslims needed to standardize it because there were already variations in circulation. So, who is to say that Uthman's recension is the best possible one?
You are probably unaware that the manuscripts you refer to are not the oldest copies of the Koran. Scholars believe that they have found fragments of the Koran which are older than Uthman's recension of the Koran. They are called the Sana's manuscripts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts
None of your assertions in support of the Koran are backed up with hard evidence. I said you don't have any documents written by Mohammad, and so far you have produced none. In other words, you have no autographs. One of the best scholars concerning the origins of the Koran and other Islamic traditions is Leone Caetani. Here is a summary of his ten volume work in the Wikipedia.
Caetani was not a Moslem and he did not believe in the literal truth of the Qur'an. Instead his views about its origins were as follows. As long as Muhammad was alive, he could answer any doctrinal questions that arose, so there was little attention paid to written documents. The reign of his successor Abu Bakr was characterized by increasing confusion as multiple written and oral versions of Muhammad's teachings coexisted. To his great credit, Uthman understood the danger of this situation; he had an official version of the Qur'an developed and ordered the destruction of all unapproved versions. To summarize, Caetani thought that the Qur'an as it exists today did not come word for word from the pen of the Prophet, but was the result of a standardization and clean up effort ("Uthman's recension") undertaken many years after his death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leone_Caetani
You are free to believe anything you wish, including the claim that the Koran contains Mohammad's exact words. As a Muslim, you have the prerogative to include that claim in your faith, however, you should understand that your claim is based on faith, not on objective proof. I'm not saying that you are wrong, you may be correct, or you may be incorrect. Since you can't prove your claims, there is no way to know for sure.
Amir said:
Qur'an is the only religious Book in the world that has been memorized by a great number of Muslims around the globe since the time of the Prophet, and has been carried down as a common practice throughout the world to this day. Those people who memorize the Qur'an are known as Huffaz-al Qur'an.They know the Qur'an word by word, syllable for syllable, hence if the world ever decided to obliterate the Qur'an from the face of this earth, the Huffaz will be able to reproduce the Qur'an in no time-thus making the Qur'an indestructible,imperishable.
I understand that many Muslims spend a great deal of time memorizing the Koran. I have also met people who have have memorized the Bible. That fact says nothing about the origins of the Koran or about the origins of the Bible. Incidentally, I believe the people who are spending so much time in rote memorization are wasting their time.
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