Posted by Illuminati on 6/13/2009, 7:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Use of Sources"
75.173.17.91
Amir posted:
So where are the words "light of life" in the translation u gave??
My point is that these words were inserted by Christians scribes.To insert words which do not apppear in the original text has nothing to do with sound scholarship.They did so only to support their belief and that's what i was pointing out.This is mistranslation
About the same passage Amir also said:
""Amir, if you are a Hebrew scholar, then you might have standing to make the inflammatory claim that the NIV was deliberately mistranslated. Fundamentalists Christians will sometimes debate among themselves which translations are the most accurate.""
It has nothing to do with accuracy.Wjat i am talking about is intentional mistranslation to support one's own belief.If the christians scolars believe that the resurrection was a fact ,then why try to prove it by inserting words of their own.Because for one thing,the words light of life DO NOT figure in the original text.
I don t know why u r overlooking it.
I am not a hebrew scolar but i can translate and u can look up for the original text if u dont believe me.
My point is simple:The scholars have introduced some words of their own which have NOTHING to do with the original translation.
Amir, undoubtedly you are sincere, however, you have made a strong statement which is not supported by evidence. For their own reasons, the translators of the NIV decided to include the phrase, "light [of life]" even though it is not found in the Masoretic text. Apparently they thought they would have a more accurate translation if they included this phrase. Fortunately, they did not make up this phrase as you believe. Instead, they brought it in from the text of Isaiah found in the Dead Sea scrolls. This phrase is also found in the Septuagent. Unless there were Christians before Jesus was born, your accusations are baseless.
The passage in Isaiah is a very powerful proclaimation of the gospel many years before Jesus was born. As Isaiah says, the suffering servant, who I believe is Jesus, bore my sins and He bore your sins. It is through His stripes that we are healed. Through Jesus' life and death, God has offered us a wonderful gift.
Amir posted:
""Since your doctrines come strictly from the Koran and from the Muslim traditions, Biblical exegesis does not constitute evidence. I didn't expect you to accept it.""
I cannot accept anything that is contradictory to my belief and when there is no proof of its validity.U see,the importance of these facts do not allow me to act otherwise.I am asking for strong proofs,nothing else.
Just because Jesus(peace be upon him) had the Name mighty God doesn t mean he is God.What more,even Satan was called God!
2Corinthians 4
4.The GOD OF THIS AGE has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Amir, I understand your position. If I were a Muslim, I would probably have the same arguments. At this point, I don't know how to build a bridge between sound Biblical scholarship and Islam. There are Christians who claim they have found this link, but I need to see it for myself before I can accept that it is real. That's why I've been looking into the Koran for myself. I am convinced that if Muslims are to escape from the culdesac they now find themselves, they need to find a way to escape from the radical Islamic traditions which are currently in vogue, and to Islam with Christianity and Judaism. I do know that Mohammad told his followers to respect the Bible, so hopefully there is some common ground somewhere.
Amir posted:
""Where is the goodness in Islam?""
Islam by definition means submission to Allah almighty.By testifying of the unicity of God and acknowledging that the prophet Muhammad is the messenger of Allah is the basis of our belief.Life is but a short voyage where the muslims makes preparations for the hereafter which will be eternal.In Islam the belongings of others is sacred and one must honour his engagement with Allah.No souls should be hurt and everyone is equal(race,colour,social position) except in righteousness.
Islam is a not only a religion but a way of living.If one were to analyse the life of the prophet Muhammad(SAW) one would be surprised by his overwhelming goodness,generosity and charity.His patience and good humourm,his ever smiling face always inspired trust among the believers.No one experienced so much difficulties as him and he endured it all because of us.Never once did he complain,not even when he lost his son.It is recorded that he carried him on his deathbed crying.Never once did he swear or even raised his voice at others.When he was angry he would just turn his face away.He never lied and was always honest.Even the Jews trusted his honesty even though they did not like him.When he had the power,he did not turn against those who opposed him but instead forgave them with a smile.He refused to take revenge upon those who had pelted him and his companion with rocks to such an extent that his sandals were drained in blood.Instead he forgave them saying he was the blessing of humanity.Despite having wealth,he did not lead a life of luxury but instead gave away all his wealth to the poor and needy.
Anyone who understand the prophet Muhammad(saw) has understood Islam.
Amir, I believe that your vision of Islam is a good vision. I wish that all Muslims shared you understanding of Islam. Perhaps my question needs to be reworded. When I ask where's the goodness in Islam, what I was asking is what new understanding of God can I find from Islam which is not already available in Christianity.
The activities which you are describing, which are very meaningful to you, all involve shared community activities. These can be very meaningful. Probably all communities have shared rituals which bind the community together. The details of the rituals themselves are meaningless, but because of the social setting in which they are performed, they assume significance for the people participating in them. For those participating in these rituals, it is important to put them in proper perspective. Although they are important as a social cohesive, thy have no moral content. For instance, when you fast is completely arbitrary. If Muslims all decided to fast in January or June, they could still share the same community spirit.
Here is my problem with the way Muslims attempt to use the Bible. I recognize that after Jesus, there is no reason to expect any future prophet to have a new message. What can not happen is for a new prophet to severe the connection between his teachings and the Bible. When Muslims approach the Bible as if it contains the writings of impostors who have changed God's word, that breaks any possibility for Muslims to benefit from the truths in the Bible.
About the Jehovah Abraham saw, Amir wrote:
So just because there is no specific detail about who the messenger is,can we assume that it was really God himself who appeared or can we just assume that God spoke through a messenger like all the other scriptures. Should we read Genesis 18 in the light of the other scriptures where God appears through a messenger.Well I think that we must use scripture to interpret scripture and then it acts as a witness to truth.This is important because some scripture can be taken the wrong way,if not weighed up with other scripture given that we can sometimes interpret a scripture in a number of different ways due to different possible meanings of words or the possible lack of detail in description.
Amir you have asked for more witnesses. This is not the only instance in which the Patriarchs saw Jehovah. Moses saw Him.
Ex 33:7-11
7 Now Moses used to take a tent and pitch it outside the camp some distance away, calling it the "tent of meeting." Anyone inquiring of the LORD would go to the tent of meeting outside the camp. 8 And whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose and stood at the entrances to their tents, watching Moses until he entered the tent. 9 As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the LORD spoke with Moses. 10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to his tent. 11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face , as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
NIV
The Bible clearly identifies an individual named Jehovah, who appeared to Abraham and to Moses. In this passage Jehovah spoke to Moses "face to face." When Moses asked God to show him His glory, God only showed His back. In other words, God is able to appear to people as a being similar to us without demonstrating all His power. Here is another witness:
Num 12:7-8
But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face ,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?"
NIV
If we accept Jesus’ statement that no one has seen the Father, then who is this Jehovah who Abraham and Moses saw? The description of Jehovah in the Old Testament includes all the qualities we normally associate with God. If we believe in almighty God, there doesn’t seem to be any reason to rule out the possibility that He can certainly appear in human form. Thus there is no a priori basis to reject the Biblical argument that God has at times assumed human form.
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