Posted by illuminti on 6/13/2009, 4:07 pm, in reply to "Re: The Holy Spirit 1"
75.173.17.91
Amir said:
""I checked all the verses in the Koran which discuss the Holy Spirit. I did not find any verse which supports your claim. This leaves me puzzled. If you believe that the Koran is inspired by God, then why do you feel the need to redefine the words in the Koran?""
I do not redefine words in the QUran because this would be like lying to yourself and ultimately i would be the only one to lose.
I have decided to read the Koran without the influence of Islamic traditions to see if it is possible to interpret the Koran differently than how modern Muslims interpret it. It is interesting to speculate about what the Koran means without the layers of tradition which force modern Muslims readers into habitual thought patterns. I'm not saying that you deliberately misunderstand the Koran. Perhaps your interpretation is exactly what Mohammad meant. One problem which I have already discovered is that the words in the Koran themselves might mean different things to different people.
Amir said:
"The Day that the Spirit and the Angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right. (The Noble Quran, 78:38)"
We can see from this verse that the holy spirit in under Allah's command just like the other angels.
Now i am the one puzzled by your claim.You argue that u did not find a single evidence that the Angel Gabriel is the holy spirit.
I looked up the name Gabriel in the Koran. I still don't find any definitive connection between the Holy Spirit and Gabriel in the Koran. Since the Holy Spirit is mentioned apart from the angels, I’m curious, are you assuming that Gabriel is something other than an angel?
The passage you mentioned is interesting:
078.038
YUSUFALI: The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right.
PICKTHAL: On the day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent alloweth and who speaketh right.
SHAKIR: The day on which the spirit and the angels shall stand in ranks; they shall not speak except he whom the Beneficent Allah permits and who speaks the right thing.
To me this passage defines Mohammad’s position quite well, that God's Holy Spirit is a separate entity from the angels. Your point is well taken however, I can not think of any place where the Bible speaks about either Jesus or the Holy Spirit in exactly this manner. I don't think that it proves that Mohammad used the term different from Christians, but I will admit that from the Christian perspective, it is an unusual passage.
Since you have mentioned Paul, I would like to present two statement from Paul about the gospel. Paul sincerely believed the gospel. He sacrificed his life to spread the good news of God's salvation to everyone he met.
Rom 1:16-17
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
NIV
2 Tim 1:8-12
8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed , because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.
NIV
I think I know why modern Muslims reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. They don't understand it. Because Muslims reject the Bible, the Koran is the only basis for their faith. Because the scope of the Koran is quite limited, Muslims are also limited since they are unable to benefit from the bountiful truths found in the Bible.
Amir said:
We believe that the one God that christians believe in is the same while the different aspects of trinity however is incorrect.
Your statement is a good summary of the differences in our beliefs about God. I believe that there is one other aspect which you have not included. Because Christians believe that Jesus was a manifestation of God, they have a sharply different view of God's character than Muslims. Our God is personal. Jesus has brought God near to us, as our Heavenly Father, who loves us unconditionally. Through Jesus, He suffers and rejoices along with us in our existence. Because I’m a Christian, I know that God is my best friend, Who never fails. Because of Jesus, I have assurance of salvation. As long as I continue to believe in Jesus, I am already saved.
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