Posted by Illuminati on 6/13/2009, 4:05 pm, in reply to "Re: The Holy Spirit"
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Amir said:
So the original Gospel was not in Greek, it was in the language Jesus and his people spoke and understood.We have no record or evidence to indicate that; this original Gospel was written down by scribes under Jesus’ own supervision.
Your argument about which language Jesus and His disciples spoke is a wild guess at best. How do you know that Jesus was limited to one language? Is it possible that He was bilingual or trilingual? We know that at times Jesus spoke Aramaic since the gospels translate Aramaic words into Greek for the Greek readers. However, if the gospels are the fraud you claim, then it is puzzling why a fraudulent writer would first quote Jesus in Aramaic and then translate the quotation into Greek.
You are correct that the New Testament was complied after Jesus' death. I believe the same argument can be made against the Koran. My understanding is that not only was it compiled after Mohammad's death, but the final version which Muslims now use was standardized even later. Apparently one of the early Caliphs had a book burning ceremony where he burned the alternate readings.
You seem to be unaware that almost any argument you bring against the Bible can be applied to the Koran. Since we don't have any original versions of the Koran, and since so far as we know we have nothing which was actually written by Mohammad, it is impossible to prove that the Koran is an accurate rendering of what Mohammad actually taught. You might exercise faith that Mohammad's followers accurately transmitted his teachings, but without any original writings of Mohammad, you can not prove it.
Amir said:
Instead of the original Gospel, we have four books written by persons who are supposed to have been Jesus’ disciples.I say ‘supposed’, because modern scholars who have done research on the subject, question the claim that these were the disciples of Jesus,in the first place.These four books called the Gospels are placed at the beginning of some 27 books,bound together into one volume, called The New Testament.Out of these 27 books, thirteen were written by a man called St. Paul.This Paul was not a disciple of Jesus, nor has Jesus met him, as he himself testifies. Modern Christians are ardent followers of St. Paul,even in cases where Paul clearly contradicts Jesus.This is why i don t believe christians follow Jesus(peace be upon him)
Again, you logic is faulty. Since you have rejected the written records of Jesus' teachings, you have no objective standard upon which to base your claim that Paul contradicted Jesus. Because Paul was probably not an eyewitness to most of Jesus' ministry, in his writings, Paul does not present many sayings from Jesus. He left this task to eyewitnesses. Since he rarely quots Jesus, he has few opportunities to contradict Jesus.
Your response leaves us with an interesting conundrum. Although the Koran uses many terms from the Christian Bible, the question remains, did Mohammad mean the same thing when He used the words as the Christians around him believed he said? For people to communicate, they have to agree on the meaning of the language they use. When Mohammad said he followed Jesus and believed the gospel, was he talking about the same individual Christians call Jesus? Was he talking about the same gospel. I believe that from your comments, we can be positive that Modern Muslims do not teach the gospel found in the Bible. This is a big problem since the gospel is the main thrust of Jesus' work.
Amir said:
In fact this claim cannot be supported in the light of your own scriptures:
"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie"(Jeremiah 8:8, quoted from the New American Standard Bible).
Here the Prophet Jeremiah is scolding the Israelites that their corrupt scribes have made the Law of the Lord (that is the Torah) into a lie by their ‘lying pen’ (that is the pen they used to change the verses). This proof in the Book, the People of the Book are carrying, clearly establishes that their Book has been corrupted by their own scribes.
Amir, I have pointed out the fallacies in your logical arguments in the past. Again, you have fallen into a logical trap. For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that your interpretation of Jeremiah is correct.
You are trying to prove that the Bible has been changed by wicked men. To prove your point, you quote the very book which you say has been altered. If the Bible has been changed as you claim, then the passage you quoted could be used to prove exactly the opposite from what you believe! Since you have no way to know which passages are legitimate and which have been inserted by evil men, according to your own argument, it is possible that this passage was inserted by wicked men to undermine faith in the Torah. In other words, perhaps the entire Old Testament is valid except for this one passage.
Moreover, I do not stipulate to your interpretation of Jeremiah. There is nothing in this passage to indicate that the accurate rendition of the Torah has been lost. If Jeremiah was accusing other people of changing the Torah, that does not support your assume that Jeremiah himself was deprived of an accurate version of the Torah. Since Jeremiah's book has been transmitted to us, there is no reason to believe that the Torah which Jeremiah used has been lost.
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